Finally some video. What to do, besides the obvious?

[andyinnorway]

Robin,

This thread picked up momentum quickly.

You've already had a load of comments but I would plus one on the flexibility exercises, limited reach at the front of the stroke looks to me like your biggest hurdle for lowering SPL and increasing speed.

Balance and streamline is also much harder without a long hull.

[Talvi]

Originally Posted by Danny

.. find your best friend who is about 10 yrs old and skinny and ask him or her to extend their arms over their head with arms straight and hands clasped. The ease with which they do this is astonishing..

I just did this sitting at my desk. No problem, just the odd cracking! Still there is room for possible improvement (rather than wistful yearning!) as even minor stiffness, both poor extension and release/contraction, changes proprioception of our orientation.

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

...I dont know how much you can increase your shoulder flexibility...

You and me both ZT!

What I would like is flexibility AND strength exercises. Working on flexibility in isolation is inadvisable for me. Suzanne posted these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khoNsq-UAW8.

Sclim, do you want to give them a silver test rating?

[Talvi]

Originally Posted by andyinnorway

... I would plus one on the flexibility exercises, limited reach at the front of the stroke looks to me like your biggest hurdle for lowering SPL and increasing speed...

Hi Andy

You pick that as #1, rather than my kick? Is that because you discounted that as I asked?

So I should focus on hand entry and spear as either #1 or #2 priority in your opinion?

I found it surprising that both the arch in my back, as seen from the side, and my hand "reaching up" are primarily optical illusions. The former is a horizontal twisting, that is horribly clear in the head-on video, and the latter is my hand coming across to my centreline after entry, again visible in all its glory in the head-on footage.

[Talvi]

Originally Posted by danm

... - also, you don't turn the arm outwards to get into an effective catch. this was mentioned already by someone, I think
....

Danm,

This is something I believe is central but nobody else seems to even see.

To try and focus on that I posted a thread specifically about it but sadly so far have come up empty.

Thing is I am not aware I am doing it, of where it comes from, and will therefore struggle to find ways to correct it especially without risking damage to my shoulder (which has only recently healed).

Suggestions here, or on the other thread, would be highly valued.

[Talvi]

ZT

No need for any apologies! I find both your summary and your points neat, complete and succinct.

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

Talvi, do you really want to swim at the effort level shown on the video?
You look like a dense guy thats riding low in the water.
Getting a breath thats not upsetting your stroke is very difficult under these conditions. ..

Shinji has posted his experiences regarding this here and illustrated it with an exquisite photo. If he finds the time to reply to my post I'll be amazed. I'm not clear how he's using the drills he mentions. Something to investigate. He has a similar density to me I think.

re effort level the answer is it's relative! It may seem I'm being "lazy" and need to put more effort in, but the reaality is that I don't find things improve with more effort. If anything more often than not they get worse.

My aim is to get as good a feel for the technique and timing as I can, and then to see. After I get that maybe I'll give up! ;) More probably though life will by then probably have given up on me! :D

[Talvi]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

... looking at the footage, things to work on:
1 - better streamline.
Arms on entry, bodyline, kick.
2 - better core driven rotation. Stop overrotation on a dropped elbow.

This knee kicking is an evil beast that has to vanish to get a good integrated roll around the bodyline.
Still believe that the hard work you feel in your core when kicking with almost striaight legs is the key feeling you want to have in a good core connected kick.
You have to feel you kick the butt up with the whole leg, ending with the bottom leg.
This is very different from an isolated kick from the knee.Kicking on your back with a small amplitude, no knees above waterline could help.
Well, sorry for repeating myself again.

Your #1 points are all good. Andy mentions them and I've replied about them there.

I think my kick and the rotation are very much linked. That back-stroke kicking sounds like a good idea. I'll give it a shot (maybe I should wear a skid lid though!). I can feel the sense in your description of the kick better now and Danm also describes it:

Originally Posted by danm

... - you kick from the knee, with a deep knee flexion which almost stops you in your track ... the main movement of the leg should start in the abdominal muscles, then trickle down through the leg, not start at the knee....

I can't figure if I'm actually already stopped at that point, but if not, that kick would surely do the trick!

I think my kick has gone wrong because I focused on its role in rotation. People talked about rotating without any leverage, but that's scientifically impossible. Charles' videos do not show otherwise and no other videos have been posted to show that it is. However, as Charles' has said, as a begnnner I overdo things all the time.

Since the video I tried to correct what I had seen in it by kicking "microscopically". I was surprised to find myself doing a weak butterfly kick! This also happend at the beginning of last summer, when I swam in OW for the first time. I posted here about it but then put the experience on the shelf. I now realise that kick is a reaction, seeking to keep my legs up, and i think that's what I should focus on. As you say, my tendency is to over-rotate.

[danm]

Originally Posted by sclim

@danm and @Talvi: this fact may be true. But, speaking for myself, it wasn't quite so easy as just ramping up my tempo trainer time. As a beginner, I have a vary precarious grasp of balance and streamlining. When I was finally able to get a reasonable balance and streamline integrating all the other elements of stroke mechanics at one tempo, increasing the speed by any significant fraction (decreasing the TT interval) caused a breakdown of that very delicate balance. I had to decrease the TT intervals in tiny tiny steps, and practice for weeks at the new speed before I was able to regain the form and the SPL etc. I was capable of at the old tempo. So ramping up the tempo before fixing the other things may not be the actual help that it may seem to be.

hey, who said it was easy? :)

[danm]

Originally Posted by Talvi

Danm,

This is something I believe is central but nobody else seems to even see.

To try and focus on that I posted a thread specifically about it but sadly so far have come up empty.

Thing is I am not aware I am doing it, of where it comes from, and will therefore struggle to find ways to correct it especially without risking damage to my shoulder (which has only recently healed).

Suggestions here, or on the other thread, would be highly valued.

I am actually working on that myself these days, probably that's why I was able to spot it. I find that concentrating on keeping the elbows high helps; basically, if you keep the elbows high, you must also turn the hand slightly outwards, otherwise it's too hard. I also have some pain in my left shoulder... I can't explain exactly how to do it without pain, but it's possible. One way to explain it would be to not lean on the shoulder too much; when the arm is extended, don't open the axile too much. It's probably related to not dropping the elbow, if the elbow drops, then the axile opens too much and the shoulder is impinging on the acromion. The whole "reaching over an open barrell" thing deals with this, I think...

[Danny]

There's been a lot of suggestions here about stretching exercises to increase flexibility, but there are two approaches to this issue. I'm all for stretching, but I will never be 10 yrs old again. The second approach is to modify the style you are aiming at to accomodate your limitations. This requires being able to recognize those aspects of the way your heroes swim on film and not wasting your time trying to emulate them. It does not mean that you can't swim so gracefully that people will want to complement you. It probably places a real limitation on how fast you can swim.

For me, the biggest accomodation was to start consciously spearing deeper. It led to all sorts of good changes and I'm actually swimming faster than I was before. Just wanted to get that out there.

[Talvi]

Originally Posted by danm

I am actually working on that myself these days, probably that's why I was able to spot it. I find that concentrating on keeping the elbows high helps; basically, if you keep the elbows high, you must also turn the hand slightly outwards, otherwise it's too hard. I also have some pain in my left shoulder... I can't explain exactly how to do it without pain, but it's possible. One way to explain it would be to not lean on the shoulder too much; when the arm is extended, don't open the axile too much. It's probably related to not dropping the elbow, if the elbow drops, then the axile opens too much and the shoulder is impinging on the acromion. The whole "reaching over an open barrell" thing deals with this, I think...

Hiya Danm

Where do you feel this barrel? And at what points in the stroke do you feel it most?

Despite appearances (!) I often focus on draping my arm at the end of the spear. That is actually probably beyond my skill point at this time and not that helpful maybe.