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  #31  
Old 01-26-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I think we may be saying the same thing Danny, but you sound at times like you contradict yourself in the text. Perfect not-perfect is a subjective thing, because our bodies are different. Charles says the proof of the pudding is only in performance. I'd say the proof is only in the enjoyment, but when all's said and done maybe that also is saying the same thing. The head rotates around a pivot at the top of the spine so what is the straight line in this case? I continue to experiment but find over and over that the effect of one change ripples through to everything else. It's like herding cats. Over the next six months I will develop a lot because of that video I finally got. When the body is provided with good information it works things out. Over and over I find that micro-management, despite the fact that it tends to be all we've got available to us, is pretty hopeless.

Personally I don't worry. I experiment and if it works or feels good then I go in that direction. My kick for instance has gone wrong because was focused on its role in rotation. People talked about rotating without any leverage but that's scientifically impossible and Charles' videos do not show otherwise. No other videos have been posted to show that it is so until I have some evidence I'm going with the science. However, again as Charles' has said, as a begnnner I overdo things all the time. My kick becomes bad when I try to do what think is right. I figured this out before I really saw it in the videos. I tried to kick microscopically and ended by doing a sort of butterfly kick with both legs at the same time. It happend at the beginning of last summer when I swam in OW for the first time. I posted here about it. I never figured out whyit happened. Then the other day I realised it was to keep my legs up!! D'oh!

Sclim, yes I find that all the time. It's my daily practice, or rather my practice moment to moment. It's how I "cured" my sacral whatchamajoosit and my cruciate ligament failures, both apparently requiring surgery! Shame it takes a lifetime to figure this tuff out and then the knowledge dies with you but that's the way of it. In this journey I have gone around and around, focusing first on one part of my body and then on another in series of ahah moments that span about seven years. In the end I seem to have come back to the beginning, have reapplied all I've learned and think I've got it - walk on your hips!

:)
Hi Talvi, what you wrote above sounds very mellow! I agree with you entirely. My major goal in swimming is to have fun. And the litmus test for anything I do is how it feels. The camera is there mostly to provide us with suggestions of things to try that will make it feel even better, but if it doesn't feel good, then it ain't worth doing.

As for spinal head alignment, my version of this is admittedly somewhat subjective. I draw a horizontal line in the video through the spine, neck and head. If the line stays in the spine and goes through the middle of the head, then you are aligned in my opinion. If you rotate your head to look over your shoulder, but your head still stays on that line then, according to me, you are still aligned.

On another subject, I may be close to buying an underwater camera. When I do, I will get back to you for advice on how to film myself. By then you should have lots of experience!
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  #32  
Old 01-26-2015
tiswimjapan tiswimjapan is offline
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I think the main difference between myself and super swimmers (such as Terry and Phelps) is I do not have background of competitive freestyle. They have to raise their heads because they are swimming at very fast speed. You cannot breathe if you use my style for races.

I learned efficient breathing from Freestyle Made Easy video, which starts Back Balance. I unintentionally used to drink 2 liters of the pool water every time I practiced Back Balance and Sweet Spot drills. I believe my balance comes from those drills.

Two skills not to rotate too much while breathing: Popeye's mouth and a bow wave. When your head is mostly submerged (top of the head is just beneath the water) and you have enough acceleration, the water in front of your head is pushed and it creates a pocket around your head. You can lower the surface by 10-30 cm by doing this, thus you do not have to roll so much and can avoid bending your spinal line.
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  #33  
Old 01-26-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Shinji,

Thank you very much for this clarification!
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  #34  
Old 01-27-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by tiswimjapan View Post
I learned efficient breathing from Freestyle Made Easy video, which starts Back Balance. I unintentionally used to drink 2 liters of the pool water every time I practiced Back Balance and Sweet Spot drills. I believe my balance comes from those drills.
Shinji Sensei: this happens to me too! I am so glad to hear you say that. I thought there was something wrong with me. I am going to go back to doing those drills again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiswimjapan View Post
Two skills not to rotate too much while breathing: Popeye's mouth and a bow wave. When your head is mostly submerged (top of the head is just beneath the water) and you have enough acceleration, the water in front of your head is pushed and it creates a pocket around your head. You can lower the surface by 10-30 cm by doing this, thus you do not have to roll so much and can avoid bending your spinal line.
Shinji -- is this a typing mistake? Or can you really get up to 30 cm lowering of the surface with a bow wave?
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  #35  
Old 01-27-2015
tiswimjapan tiswimjapan is offline
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Sample photo of bow wave.
I cannot breathe underwater, but it looks so from above.

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  #36  
Old 01-27-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by tiswimjapan View Post
Sample photo of bow wave.
I cannot breathe underwater, but it looks so from above.

Shinji, Such a beautiful photo!

Without easy breathing it is hard not to struggle. If we struggle our technique does not improve. If our technique does not improve we do not go faster. If we do not go faster we cannot get the easy breath.

What is your experience of breaking this cycle and your advice? Is it back-balance drill?

This bow wave effect seems to me to be critical to technique. You clearly have the acceleration needed to create it and you seem to swim your relaxed style at about a 1:20 /100m pace. You have a video showing your swimming before learning TI and look quick in that too. Perhaps you "always" had the speed even if it was not at a competitive level?

I don't think I have ever been fast enough, so what advice would you give to those of us stuck at paces over 2:00 /100m and with poor acceleration?
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  #37  
Old 01-27-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Hi Talvi, what you wrote above sounds very mellow! I agree with you entirely. My major goal in swimming is to have fun. And the litmus test for anything I do is how it feels. The camera is there mostly to provide us with suggestions of things to try that will make it feel even better, but if it doesn't feel good, then it ain't worth doing.

As for spinal head alignment, my version of this is admittedly somewhat subjective. I draw a horizontal line in the video through the spine, neck and head. If the line stays in the spine and goes through the middle of the head, then you are aligned in my opinion. If you rotate your head to look over your shoulder, but your head still stays on that line then, according to me, you are still aligned.

On another subject, I may be close to buying an underwater camera. When I do, I will get back to you for advice on how to film myself. By then you should have lots of experience!
I adamantly believe in the wisdom of our physical being. Our bodies are telling us stuff all the time. The trick is learning to listen.

For me enjoyment is more than mere hedonism. It is a way to find the path of least resistance which leads to efficiency and safety. I think a big problem arises when we fixate on an external form at the expense of the connection to ourself.

I learned about the use of video while studying group working using synectics (probably misremembered term) about forty years ago at college. At a superficial level anyway, video gives us the opprtunity to "see ourselves as others see us", to stand outside of ourselves. The astounding thing is that we recognize ourselves at a deep level and that connection generates a change process independent of cognition. The new perception becomes incorporated with those internally generated.

My chances of getting more video are probably limited but as I've said, from the experience of my own footage for underwater footage you really need side and front views in order to triangulate the movements in 3D and get a reliabile read of what you're "seeing".
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #38  
Old 01-27-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post

My chances of getting more video are probably limited but as I've said, from the experience of my own footage for underwater footage you really need side and front views in order to triangulate the movements in 3D and get a reliabile read of what you're "seeing".
More is always better, but my learning is this area are: don't focus on the head and shoulders. I personally like side shots that contain the whole body from finger tips to toes. That way you can see the interactions between kicking and arms as well as balance issues. Front and back are always helpful, but I feel like I can see my biggest problems best from the side.
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  #39  
Old 01-27-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Indeed Danny, I get you. My point is coming from a different ... err angle!

I'm not saying one or the other view is better. In fact I agree that you get a shedload more info from a finger to toe tip shot.

What's been an eye opener for me hass been to see how misleading uw video can be if it is not "triangulated"/referenced against a second viewpoint that is preferably at right angles to the first. The head-on shot and the side-on shot need to be viewed "together" because that's the only way the optical illusions can be seen.

If you use the head-on shot at the beginning of my video and the side shots after, you'll be able to see what I'm referring to.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 01-27-2015 at 01:47 PM.
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  #40  
Old 01-27-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I adamantly believe in the wisdom of our physical being. Our bodies are telling us stuff all the time. The trick is learning to listen.

For me enjoyment is more than mere hedonism. It is a way to find the path of least resistance which leads to efficiency and safety. I think a big problem arises when we fixate on an external form at the expense of the connection to ourself.

I learned about the use of video while studying group working using synectics (probably misremembered term) about forty years ago at college. At a superficial level anyway, video gives us the opprtunity to "see ourselves as others see us", to stand outside of ourselves. The astounding thing is that we recognize ourselves at a deep level and that connection generates a change process independent of cognition. The new perception becomes incorporated with those internally generated..
Wow, a lot to unpack here. Have to read it multiple times and go away and think a bit. I hope I'm really learning as much as I think I am, reading all these diverse, and sometimes rather profound opinions of others!
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