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  #51  
Old 12-07-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Hi Andy and Salvo

Like Salvo, I was struck by how little time you take for a turn. If I read you right. it only takes you 1 beep on TT and you are pushing off? If I swim with TT at 1:30, it takes me 3 beeps to get into the pushoff. This means that my turn is taking almost 4 seconds just for 1 length. Even if I turn in 2 seconds, this could shorten my time for every length I swim by 2 seconds. guess I know the answer to that one! Even if I do shorten that turn time, my average per length for 4 lengths is 34 seconds. For 2 lengths, it is 31 seconds. Would love to get to 43 seconds for 2 lengths. That will take some doing.

Sherry
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  #52  
Old 12-07-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
@Danny: could you just flesh this out for my benefit? Before you are "exerting force" i.e., before your pulling arm's shoulder is higher, what exactly are you doing with that arm? It seems to me you are setting up your catch, which comes just before, right? So, what does the catch involve? I thought it used a sort of pulling or at least some sort of pressure or force application with your fingers, palms and forearms as it is moved through the positions of the catch sequence, merging into the rest of the stroke. Are you saying the pressure involved in the catch is a very subtle, delicate sort of thing exactly calibrated to the feedback feeling of the water with a view to setting up a kind of solidity to the water resistance -- and so you don't consider this a significant force, compared to the real ramping up once your shoulder gets raised?
The catch is occurring as the other arm is spearing forward. As the opposite arm spears, body rotation is occurring. During this time, I more or less try to keep my catch hand in the same place and, as my body rotates, move past it. Although the hand stays in place, the elbow comes up, because I am moving past the hand. None of the resultant motion should require much force to speak of. Once the spearing shoulder is below the catch shoulder, pressure you exert on the catch hand should move the hand back instead of down. Hope this makes sense.
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  #53  
Old 12-07-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Hi Andy and Salvo

Like Salvo, I was struck by how little time you take for a turn. If I read you right. it only takes you 1 beep on TT and you are pushing off? If I swim with TT at 1:30, it takes me 3 beeps to get into the pushoff. This means that my turn is taking almost 4 seconds just for 1 length. Even if I turn in 2 seconds, this could shorten my time for every length I swim by 2 seconds. guess I know the answer to that one! Even if I do shorten that turn time, my average per length for 4 lengths is 34 seconds. For 2 lengths, it is 31 seconds. Would love to get to 43 seconds for 2 lengths. That will take some doing.

Sherry
Sherry this is the one stroke open turn technique - learned from the boss. The secret is to use the force of the hand hitting the wall to initiate a hip pivot, then hold the head in a fixed plane as it changes direction, no left right motion, no up down motion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOuTMGvF43A&t=1m15s
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  #54  
Old 12-08-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
The catch is occurring as the other arm is spearing forward. As the opposite arm spears, body rotation is occurring. During this time, I more or less try to keep my catch hand in the same place and, as my body rotates, move past it. Although the hand stays in place, the elbow comes up, because I am moving past the hand. None of the resultant motion should require much force to speak of. Once the spearing shoulder is below the catch shoulder, pressure you exert on the catch hand should move the hand back instead of down. Hope this makes sense.
Absolutely clearly:

Your catch is a low pressure positioning movement that is pretty much neutral in relation to immediately imparting propulsion (or retardation to forward glide from body momentum.) Or if there is some propulsion as opposed to resisting forward motion, it is pretty minimal or subtle, until the body has glided past the catching hand to the point where the spearing shoulder is below the catch shoulder; once you reach that sweet spot (as far as precise backward direction of resultant force vector), only then do you apply significant force at the fingers, palm and elbow.
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  #55  
Old 12-08-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
The catch is occurring as the other arm is spearing forward. As the opposite arm spears, body rotation is occurring. During this time, I more or less try to keep my catch hand in the same place and, as my body rotates, move past it. Although the hand stays in place, the elbow comes up, because I am moving past the hand. None of the resultant motion should require much force to speak of. Once the spearing shoulder is below the catch shoulder, pressure you exert on the catch hand should move the hand back instead of down. Hope this makes sense.
Beautifully put Danny.

I'd suggest not worrying about keeping the catch hand still so much as feeling the VW bonnet hood / ball of water under the arm and hand as you're spearing/rotating, then, as you say finish exit and recover all in one smooth movement.

That's my theory. Doing it though ..... !!
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
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  #56  
Old 12-08-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
The catch is occurring as the other arm is spearing forward. As the opposite arm spears, body rotation is occurring. During this time, I more or less try to keep my catch hand in the same place and, as my body rotates, move past it. Although the hand stays in place, the elbow comes up, because I am moving past the hand. None of the resultant motion should require much force to speak of. Once the spearing shoulder is below the catch shoulder, pressure you exert on the catch hand should move the hand back instead of down. Hope this makes sense.
I tried this morning to put this new (for me) understanding of the delayed application of force until later after the catch into practice.

It was a little awkward, as I would expect any modification of habit to be, but it went OK. I also concentrated on making sure I integrated this sequence with an adequate body roll on both directions, which I may have been deficient on prior. to this. But it was far from a disaster, which for me counts as a huge success. It even became easier later on in the practice. I think I was overdoing the "zero force during the catch, then suddenly applying force when the shoulder progression lines cross" concept. No doubt the optimum sequence would be a more nuanced build up of force which will become clearer an more natural as I develop a feel for this. Thanks Danny for the great explanation!

(It even became easy enough for me to add a new simultaneous focus, the attempt to restrict my kick to a 15 cm amplitude, as suggested by Shinji in the dialogue following the recent introduction of his new videos).
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  #57  
Old 12-08-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Sclim, check what I wrote - it addresses the issue you describe.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #58  
Old 12-09-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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You mean...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I'd suggest not worrying about keeping the catch hand still so much as feeling the VW bonnet hood / ball of water under the arm and hand as you're spearing/rotating, then, as you say finish exit and recover all in one smooth movement.
?

I'll try to integrate this with the other characteristics of the catch and what follows. There essentially seems to be no contradiction here (with Danny's description), and I think I can visualise the whole sequence -- or at least start to get a complete mental concept of it. Thanks Talvi for the VW reminder.

Last edited by sclim : 12-09-2014 at 05:18 AM.
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  #59  
Old 12-09-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
.. There essentially seems to be no contradiction here (with Danny's description), ..
No contradiction at all. But you wrote after that:

Quote:
I think I was overdoing the "zero force during the catch, then suddenly applying force when the shoulder progression lines cross" concept
The bit you quote addresses that. Do not worry about the stiollness of the catch but on the feel of the ball of water that your catch gently wraps itself around. It's the difference between trying not to do something (pull) as opposed to doing something (gently feel).
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #60  
Old 12-09-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
No contradiction at all. But you wrote after that:



The bit you quote addresses that. Do not worry about the stiollness of the catch but on the feel of the ball of water that your catch gently wraps itself around. It's the difference between trying not to do something (pull) as opposed to doing something (gently feel).
Nice phraseology in the last sentence. Easy to remember.

OK; yet one more question that arose in my swim this morning... in your VW model, is the following of the VW hood contour integrating the spear in the initial part of the hood contour? Or is it added on after a reasonable duration of, say, 30 degree spear angled downward in a straight line during which, I suppose, there is no thought or sensation of collecting a ball of water yet.

Last edited by sclim : 12-09-2014 at 08:10 PM.
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