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  #41  
Old 12-03-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I like to swim on one side like the beginners 1 arm dril, but start pulling with the normally always extended arm with only 25% of the force of the breathing arm. Just enought to keep more roll and momentum in the stroke.
Its quite relaxing and the sideways position feels very streamlined.
Sort of loping light version.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-03-2014 at 09:16 PM.
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  #42  
Old 12-04-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I like to swim on one side like the beginners 1 arm dril, but start pulling with the normally always extended arm with only 25% of the force of the breathing arm. Just enought to keep more roll and momentum in the stroke.
Its quite relaxing and the sideways position feels very streamlined.
Sort of loping light version.
Can you detail this a bit more ZT?

This is like the skate drill right, with a flutter kick, but using a normal kick and pulling with the arm that is extended into spear while breathing but only using a small amount of force?
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  #43  
Old 12-04-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Danny, going back to your OP, you were asking about shoulder pain. FWIW my shoulder pain seems to have hbeen caused by using my spear/catch to generate the rotation rather than using the kick. I didn't spot it before as this wasn't like pushing down to lift myself to breathe. Since starting a focus on the kick my shoulder is sorted.

Perhaps the low SPL fast pace shoulder problem arises from the demand on the shoulder for rotation (if this is being done) being greatly increased.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #44  
Old 12-04-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Danny, going back to your OP, you were asking about shoulder pain. FWIW my shoulder pain seems to have hbeen caused by using my spear/catch to generate the rotation rather than using the kick. I didn't spot it before as this wasn't like pushing down to lift myself to breathe. Since starting a focus on the kick my shoulder is sorted.

Perhaps the low SPL fast pace shoulder problem arises from the demand on the shoulder for rotation (if this is being done) being greatly increased.
Talvi, this rings spot on with my own experience. You don't want to be actively using your shoulder to rotate because it will hurt. I think the same thing happens if you start the pull too early in the catch. This can also happen if you start increasing the stroke rate while holding SPL constant. I may be extreme in my approach to this, but I don't like to exert force on my arm until its shoulder is higher than the shoulder on the other side. This provides me with some insurance that I won't be pulling the shoulder joint in the wrong direction.
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  #45  
Old 12-06-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
.. I may be extreme in my approach to this, but I don't like to exert force on my arm until its shoulder is higher than the shoulder on the other side. This provides me with some insurance that I won't be pulling the shoulder joint in the wrong direction.
Sounds like a good tip to/for me. I think I'll implement it more as the "feel" of the shoulders of the spearing shoulder is lower though.

Interesting to wonder how this fits with folks feelings about timing i.e the optimal focal point for the intiation of power application.

I say it like this as there are "delays" from the point of applying power to the moment full power application is reached, due to the fluid medium, and also the fact that all the angles etc are in continuous flux.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #46  
Old 12-06-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I agree with Talvi and Danny.I have the same experience.
Entering too flat and let the bodyrotaion pull the arm down istead of having the arm under a slight downward angle that gives less friction on the bodyroll is a danger point for shoulder problems.
In the end the bodyroll is the metronome of the stroke and the arm and leg movements have to be synced relative to the bodyroll.
If you speed up the arm stroke without speeding up the bodyroll with the same amount you are putting the horses behind the cart.

Basically its very simple. The start of the force in the pull is always the same in relation to the relative position in bodyroll.
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  #47  
Old 12-06-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
... In the end the bodyroll is the metronome of the stroke and the arm and leg movements have to be synced relative to the bodyroll. ... Basically its very simple. The start of the force in the pull is always the same in relation to the relative position in bodyroll.
Nice, and I really like the idea of the body roll being the metronome of the stroke. Maybe this is another way to use the TT.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #48  
Old 12-06-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
In the end the bodyroll is the metronome of the stroke and the arm and leg movements have to be synced relative to the bodyroll.
This sounds like a symphony
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  #49  
Old 12-07-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Talvi, this rings spot on with my own experience. You don't want to be actively using your shoulder to rotate because it will hurt. I think the same thing happens if you start the pull too early in the catch. This can also happen if you start increasing the stroke rate while holding SPL constant. I may be extreme in my approach to this, but I don't like to exert force on my arm until its shoulder is higher than the shoulder on the other side. This provides me with some insurance that I won't be pulling the shoulder joint in the wrong direction.
@Danny: could you just flesh this out for my benefit? Before you are "exerting force" i.e., before your pulling arm's shoulder is higher, what exactly are you doing with that arm? It seems to me you are setting up your catch, which comes just before, right? So, what does the catch involve? I thought it used a sort of pulling or at least some sort of pressure or force application with your fingers, palms and forearms as it is moved through the positions of the catch sequence, merging into the rest of the stroke. Are you saying the pressure involved in the catch is a very subtle, delicate sort of thing exactly calibrated to the feedback feeling of the water with a view to setting up a kind of solidity to the water resistance -- and so you don't consider this a significant force, compared to the real ramping up once your shoulder gets raised?
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  #50  
Old 12-07-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi Andy,
very interesting post as always, and kudos for having shaved 7s on 50m in such a little time.
Just wanted to ask you a few questions: after being stuck on 45s for 10 months, do you think this breakthrough was due more to having swum 8/9 times in 2 weeks (more than you're used to, I suppose, so more fitness), or more to the loping stroke experiment (that is a matter of technique)? Moreover, when you "turn on 1 stroke", do you mean that it really takes you only 1.12s from the last stroke - last hand entry - to when your feet leave the wall? In that time you have to do a short underwater stroke, flip, place the feet on the wall and leave the wall, it seems too fast to me, maybe I got it wrong.

Anyway, I too believe that one adult swimmer with a decent technique and fitness should be able to go under 40s on 50m without extreme muscle engagement and, I would add, without specific sprint training. After all there are swimmers who hold this pace for 1500m or more, in a totally aerobic zone. I often wonder if these fast long distance swimmers ever do sprint/anaerobic training or not, it would be nice to hear what other people think about it.

Personally I'm most interested in open water swimming on 2.5k to 5k distances. However, what sometimes puzzles me is that, after 3 and a half years of silent practice and reading (by the way I'm a long time reader here and I always appreciated your posts and all the precious knowledge shared by the coaches and other passionate swimmers), I improved and am still improving in every distance from 100m and up, but only on the 50s I seem to be stuck at 43s like you were.

Best regards,
Salvo
Hi Salvo,

I think these were the factors

1. Yes plenty of swimming

2. Swimming in a coached group session (better focus during my sprints so less turbulence)

3. A specific physical alteration - holding my lower abdomen in to raise my keel

4. Finding a specific number solution (SR vs SPL) that worked for my swimming as you have now done too.

My turns are open so the 1.12 seconds is a fairly relaxed time for hand touching the tile to feet pushing off again.

I'll do lots of power swim sessions over the winter as I enjoy them and mix them in with some occasional long meditative swims.

I'm running my first marathon next spring so the majority of my winter training will be land rather than water based.
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