Best way to get the right kicktiming?

[Zenturtle]

I have very little awareness of the kicktiming in my backstroke and cant make sense of the timing.

In freestyle the rotational downkick comes roughly together with the end of the same side push and the other side arm extension.
The rotational downkick is helping rotation to the other side.

A normal backstroke kicktining is the same, only the downkick is now called an upkick.
So, kicking up with the rightside leg goes together with the end of the rightside push and the entry of the left arm .
ONlly difference is, the rightside upkick rotates the body further down on the rightside, at the moment you want to rotate to the left....
Do the rotational kicks have another timing in backistroke compared to freestyle?


Where are the rotational kicks in Lochtes stroke?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_fO-VyjieA

A significant part of the end of the armpush is used to help rotation in backstroke. Thats how it feels to me, and looking and the movement of Lochtes arm and hand at the end of the push, a lot of water is pushed down instead of purely backwards.
This downward endpush helps rotation. Agreed?

Compared to freestyle, backstroke works better when adding dynamics to the stroke it seems.
Connecting the end of the push and slingshot the other arm forward at the same time with rotation seems an important ingredient in backstroke. Without speed most of this effect is lost. Agreed?

[s.sciame]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

A normal backstroke kicktining is the same, only the downkick is now called an upkick.
So, kicking up with the rightside leg goes together with the end of the rightside push and the entry of the left arm .
ONlly difference is, the rightside upkick rotates the body further down on the rightside, at the moment you want to rotate to the left....
Do the rotational kicks have another timing in backistroke compared to freestyle?

Hi ZT, this theme has always puzzled me, I try to give my point of view: the way I see it is that this freestyle-like-pattern (right kick-left entry, left kick-right entry) is actually implemented only by Ryosuke Irie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NotwR_Ex5s

I love his kick (by the way he's also my favourite backstroker) but it seems to me that the majority of backstrokers, including Lochte, do quite the opposite: right kick-right entry, left kick-left entry (with the kick slightly delayed vs the arm entry). This last pattern is coherent with body rotation, Irie's pattern theoretically is against it. IMHO, body rotation in backstroke is driven more by the recovery arm and rhythm and less by the kick, and kicking is more about propulsion, so any kick timing could be fine as long as it is a propulsive kick (but again this is only my personal opinion). It seems to me that kicking often follows body rotation instead of driving it (or at list it aids just the final portion of rotation).

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

A significant part of the end of the armpush is used to help rotation in backstroke. Thats how it feels to me, and looking and the movement of Lochtes arm and hand at the end of the push, a lot of water is pushed down instead of purely backwards.
This downward endpush helps rotation. Agreed?

Yes, at expense of stroke rate (but Lochte's SR is obviously fast anyway). Recently I'm trying to let go of this final push and make an early exit thumb up, to easily increase my SR and following the popular approach that power is at the front of the stroke and not at the back. It's funny because the stroke feels more light and rhythmical, and the speed more constant, but the tradeoff is that the body rotates less and the stroke gets shorter.

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

Compared to freestyle, backstroke works better when adding dynamics to the stroke it seems.
Connecting the end of the push and slingshot the other arm forward at the same time with rotation seems an important ingredient in backstroke. Without speed most of this effect is lost. Agreed?

Yes.

Cheers,
Salvo

[Zenturtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NotwR_Ex5s

yep, thats a kick I can more are less imagine doing. Here you see a forcefull downkick that acts the same way as a 2BK downkick only done with the back side of the leg instead of the frontside.
Downside seems to be a large downward push from arm and leg at the same time what gives a lot of updown movement next to the rotation.
Its the same lift and fall that can be seem with a lot of 2BK swimmers with too much pulse force in their stroke instead of smooth force.
The guy doesnt look very streamlined. If this isnt a power stroke I dont know what is.
Only for strongman, swimming this way. He is doing it with great rhythm. Can imagine this stroke feels good and powerfull if you have the strenght to keep it going.

I gues the kicktiming setlles with time. Sometimes some kicks fall in place when starting out with a relative fast kick instead of trying to swim in slow motion and consciously thinking about the timing.
Like you said, it happens more when concentrating on armtiming and rotatiing the hips and torso following the recovering arm and pushing with the other arm
No idea what legkick (s) helped rotation.

Anyway I dont think its the same basic (rotational) timing as freestyle although it may look the same.

Some good stuff on underwater dolphin kick that also applies to normal kicking I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afpN9fOGu9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UVIdDWwE14

[Zenturtle]

From above water, the japanese guy is looking great.
Incredibly stable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cslxxJU-A5U

Thanks, going to try his kicktiming. Nice and simple. Easier to grasp for adult learners.

This kick makes more sense to me than the normal kick, and cant be that bad judging Roland Matthes results with the same technique:

Roland Matthes (born 17 November 1950) is a retired German swimmer and the most successful backstroke swimmer of all times. Between April 1967 and August 1974 he won all backstroke competitions he entered

Irie doesnt seem to use that much power as it looks like from underwater footage:

Irie initially trained in freestyle, but began swimming the backstroke alone for long periods before and after practice. Backstroke was suitable for Irie because it did not require as much power as freestyle, and soon, Irie began winning national-level competitions and breaking junior high school records.


Actually Lochtes timing is imaginable looking at it from below from 0.30 to 0.45 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CmM_Z3Zt5U
His rotation is helped by a simultanuous up and downkick right at his switch from side to side.
This double effective kick is almost in the horizontal plane.
Now his kick makes sense too. Have to watch this one a lot though to swim along mentally. Its all going a bit fast.

[s.sciame]

Absolutely, so stable - he used to train with a bottle on his head to perfect keeping the head still - and so above the water.

Also worth noting in that video that he sets the 200m world record in spite of relatively short pushoffs, and in spite of being only 1.78m and 62kg (Lochte is 1.88m and 88kg). This guy is so technical to be able to survive among those backstroke giants. He's having a hard time with Lochte because Ryan takes a lot of margin with his long pushoffs and powerful uw dolphin (Phelps' school), but in the stroking 35m little Irie is slightly faster.

Let me know how it goes if you try that kick. I tried it for a while long ago, but with me it didn't make miracles :)

[Zenturtle]

I think Lochtes timing is easiest to get when focussing on the other leg upkick at the very end of the push with the hand.
That way it makes sense rotationwise and helping the recovering arm smashing forward together with bodyrotation.

Until now I tried to kick up with the same side leg at the end of the push,just like freestyle, but that didnt work, so I forgot the legs and focussed on arm action while keeping straight without knowing what the legs where doing.

I like Lochtes underwater footage more. Less updown and less kick amplitude. HIs head is not so stable because he extends so much that his spine bends a bit.

I think rhythm and body tautness are the most important items in backstroke. Without that its very tiring on the arms and shoulders.

Normal kicktiming is pretty good to follow on this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3EY1k9rNXI
Upkick at the same side extension, just after other side push. This upkick goes together with a downkicking other leg.

[s.sciame]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

I think rhythm and body tautness are the most important items in backstroke. Without that its very tiring on the arms and shoulders.

Me too, so you may like these tips:

http://www.aquaticedge.org/articles/...0Feb.%2009.pdf

[Zenturtle]

I have found that one arm backstroke really teaches the basics of the stroke.
If you dont have straightbody balance, a reasonable kick and good rotation you will go nowhere and you will sink while trying to get the arm over.
Best to start with different effort on left and right arm until one side only makes the movement, but without any force.
Best to slow it down a lot to keep awareness of your basicrelaxed balance.
THe arm recovery is a big disturbance of buoyancy and sinks the legs if you hardly kick, but when you dig deep in the water at the front and pull the water up a bit your front will be pulled down and the legs up to get level again. The accelerated push at he other side helps get the other hand under.
This way it is possible to get to a relaxed 2 beat kick that only enhances rotation.
Only can pull this off for a few strokes but this is certainly feeling very promising. Hips break the surface at every stroke.
its hard to stay focussed. The combination of pull-body tautness and kick is very subtle and its easy to get sloppy with one of the parts.

[s.sciame]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

I have found that one arm backstroke really teaches the basics of the stroke.
If you dont have straightbody balance, a reasonable kick and good rotation you will go nowhere and you will sink while trying to get the arm over.

Absolutely, I believe one arm drills for backstroke are even more effective than they are for freestyle. The day I'll really commit to improve my backstroke I'll start with a lot of one arm drill and NAD (no arm drill).

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

Hips break the surface at every stroke.

This makes me think that I should pay more attention to how high my hips actually are. I perceive them to be high enough, but since my backstroke is still 30s/100m slower than my freestyle, I must have a major flaw that I cannot find yet (eg hips too low).

One simple test that I'll do in the next swim (don't know why I haven't thought of it yet) is try some backstroke with pull buoy and see if I get dramatically faster.

Thanks for the tips,
Salvo

[Richardsk]

Hi Salvo
A couple of years ago I did quite a lot of backstroke with a pull buoy and found I was much faster than without it. At the time I couldn't swim front crawl with a pull buoy at all. I just wallowed about in the water. Since then I found out how to swim with a pull buoy and found I was also faster on my belly. Recently I have been trying to find the same feeling without a pull buoy and have come close to my best times with the buoy, but have not equalled them. I know that the TI view is that they are not helpful in the long run but it seems to me that they can be useful as a diagnostic tool.

I have been doing some one-arm backstroke recently and find it useful if frustrating. I am sure that the problem with both front and back crawl, in my case at any rate, is longitudinal balance. Fixing it is another question.

Richard