The gliding style in very rough O/W

[CharlesCouturier]

Originally Posted by cs10

It's also very different trying to win a race vs enjoying the challenge of moving your body through different water conditions.

Ahhh, the source of most debates. It all depends where you place your hopes and goals.

Originally Posted by cs10

I wonder if any top swimmers time their movements to the swells, such as cruise up power down. It would bring new meaning to the phrase "swimming downhill". The ocean here is often what could be described as "washing machine " conditions with bare minimal visibility.

Yes they do. They sometimes face conditions that are barely imaginable. I remember on the pro scene of a race, not sure if it's still raced, but at the time, we were swimming for a while in the sea (Atlantic obviously) before heading to some strange river which would take us in people's backyard really.

There was a point where the current was so strong, that we were allowed to tow our swimmers. By themselves, they just couldn't continue moving forward!

Originally Posted by cs10

It's wonderful to have a forum like this and get a reply to questions from a professional coach on the other side of the world.

I currently sit one cheek on each world. I have coached professional swimmers, and I'm currently preparing one to get to this level next year.

[CharlesCouturier]

Originally Posted by cs10

Shelly Taylor Smith swims about this rate and late in her career changed to a high , straighter arm action to avoid her hand getting hit by waves. Underwater she does a very well timed 2BK and beautiful catch /stroke.

Who told you this secret? Footage of here are no where to be found on the web.

It's true though, she's the best possible 2b kicker in the whole world. That 2bk is simply astonishing.

[swim2Bfree]

Originally Posted by cs10

I can see that there would be a lot of shoulder driven specialists at elite level.

Not just elite. Masters-level too. Different strokes for different folks.

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

Terry was citing Skinners study to support and share his own experiences between shoulder driven verse hip driven ,in pool and in open water - excellent piece and insight.

Problem is, Terry doesn't say, "These are my own experiences, not necessarily applicable to everyone." He writes as if he's discovered a universal truth. Here is his post summary from the main page at swimwellblog.com:

"A longer, lower-tempo, hip-driven freestyle is a clear advantage in 50m pools, distances over 200 years and especially in open water."

Even a cursory observation of open water racing at various levels - Masters, triathlons, and elite OWS - suggests that the opposite is true, especially in rough water, which is the topic of this thread. High tempo shoulder drivers thrive in rough water.

Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier

Who told you this secret? Footage of here are no where to be found on the web.

Here is video footage of Shelley at MIMS from the late-'80s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyNTUuCIY4w&t=0m29s

[CharlesCouturier]

This is rarissime. Not sure she's even aware it's out there..

Thanks for allowing us to admire the greatest among the greatest.

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Originally Posted by swim2Bfree

Not just elite. Masters-level too. Different strokes for different folks.

Problem is, Terry doesn't say, "These are my own experiences, not necessarily applicable to everyone." He writes as if he's discovered a universal truth. Here is his post summary from the main page at swimwellblog.com:

"A longer, lower-tempo, hip-driven freestyle is a clear advantage in 50m pools, distances over 200 years and especially in open water."

Even a cursory observation of open water racing at various levels - Masters, triathlons, and elite OWS - suggests that the opposite is true, especially in rough water, which is the topic of this thread. High tempo shoulder drivers thrive in rough water.

I didn't find that sentence you quoted in the blog, but accept it's somewhere in summary as you note. The spirit of the message is there even if you paraphrased.

The problem you have of Terry, you seem to have the same issue. It's clear you don't agree with slower tempo hip driven stroke, and that's fine. You assert 'high tempo shoulder drivers thrive in open water' based on your experience and observations, just as Terry makes his assertions given his experience, observations that also line up with Skinner's. I'm not going to argue with success, Shelly is a clear example of shoulder driven high tempo stroke, but (at least in this video) she's swimming in quiet waters as compared to SF Bay or west coast in the afternoons. Given my experience and observations, swimming in the SF Bay challenging conditions, I've seen more swimmers get turned upside down and/or go distressed with strokes like Shelly's. These folks are not elite like Shelly - but it's fair to say masters, avid (calm) open water lake or ocean swimmers, and/or accomplished triathletes.

Shoulder driven does not work for me in longer distances whether it be calm or choppy, but it works for others I'm sure. Whatever works well and allows the swimmer to thrive regardless of conditions or environment. And as you quote, "Different strokes for different folks".

Cheers!

Stuart
MindBodyAndSWIM

[swim2Bfree]

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

I didn't find that sentence you quoted in the blog, but accept it's somewhere in summary as you note. The spirit of the message is there even if you paraphrased.

It's not a paraphrase, it's a direct quote. Go to the main page - www.swimwellblog.com. Look at the summary for the post we are discussing.

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

The problem you have of Terry, you seem to have the same issue. It's clear you don't agree with slower tempo hip driven stroke, and that's fine.

I think you misinterpret me. I think a slower tempo hip driven stroke is fine - like I said, "different strokes for different folks." I disagree with Terry that it is somehow superior to a shoulder driven stroke.

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

You assert 'high tempo shoulder drivers thrive in open water' based on your experience and observations, just as Terry makes his assertions given his experience, observations that also line up with Skinner's.

My actual quote was "shoulder drivers thrive in rough water." The distinction is key. I also didn't say other types couldn't thrive too, just that it's demonstrably true that many high tempo swimmers do well in rough water.

Terry's observations do not line up with Skinner's. Skinner was talking about pool swimming - short course vs. long course. There are far too many different variables in open water justify the logical leap from "hip driven stroke is superior in long course pool swimming" to "hip driven stroke is superior in open water."

PS, I swim in SF Bay too. Year-round, without a wetsuit. The colder the water, the rougher the water, the higher my stroke rate. Seems to work for me.

[terry]

High stroke rate doesn't = 'shoulder-driven.'
I've swum at .8 sec/stroke without compromising my fully-integrated, smooth and hip-driven stroke.
Ous Mellouli, Olympic 10k champion, hip-driven.
I try to channel Ous when I swim.

[swim2Bfree]

Originally Posted by terry

I try to channel Ous when I swim.

Do you channel his 4-beat & 6-beat kick too? Or just the parts that support your theories?

- David Davies, 2008 10k silver, shoulder-driven
- Thomas Lurz, 2012 silver, 2008 10k bronze, shoulder-driven
- almost all the women on the professional OW circuit: shoulder-driven
- Penny Palfrey, one of the best Masters OW marathon swimmers: shoulder-driven

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Originally Posted by swim2Bfree

It's not a paraphrase, it's a direct quote. Go to the main page - www.swimwellblog.com. Look at the summary for the post we are discussing.

My actual quote was "shoulder drivers thrive in rough water." The distinction is key. I also didn't say other types couldn't thrive too, just that it's demonstrably true that many high tempo swimmers do well in rough water.

Terry's observations do not line up with Skinner's. Skinner was talking about pool swimming - short course vs. long course. There are far too many different variables in open water justify the logical leap from "hip driven stroke is superior in long course pool swimming" to "hip driven stroke is superior in open water."

PS, I swim in SF Bay too. Year-round, without a wetsuit. The colder the water, the rougher the water, the higher my stroke rate. Seems to work for me.

Sorry, I meant to say "rough water" not "open water", and yes there is a distinction no doubt. I believe Skinner's observations do line up with Terry's assertions and is a good supporting argument; you don't agree - again that's fine.

Happy to hear you're an uber Bay swimmer. Love see your shoulder driven quick turnover stroke and how it holds up in rough, bumpy water. The next time I'm up in the Bay Area, let's do a swim in Aquatic Park (we can sneak outside AP for a bit by sea wall), or if a trip lines up with an Alcatraz crossings, let's do that too. Hey, did you do WWS Bridge to Bridge last weekend? Maybe you are I were on the same boat and didn't know it :-) I wish we had an Aquatic Park, Southend Rowing Club in LA - great place. Send me your contact to stuart.mcdougal@ticoach.net and I'll drop you a line the next time I'm in the area, and likewise drop me a line if you're down in LA and we can find a nice piece of ocean (Venice, Santa Monica) to stretch out our wings for an afternoon "chop swim". There's a group that swim Wed eves (5p) in summer, called "Wed Night Choppers" too.

And I agree Terry, high tempo doesn't mean it's shoulder driven. Although it seems, my perception anyway, shoulder driven is usually associated with high tempo, quick turnover.

Stuart
MindBodyAndSWIM

[swim2Bfree]

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

Happy to hear you're an uber Bay swimmer. Love see your shoulder driven quick turnover stroke and how it holds up in rough, bumpy water. The next time I'm up in the Bay Area, let's do a swim in Aquatic Park (we can sneak outside AP for a bit by sea wall), or if a trip lines up with an Alcatraz crossings, let's do that too. Hey, did you do WWS Bridge to Bridge last weekend?

I don't do WWS swims as I'm a South End member and those swims (and much, much more!) are included in my membership.

My SR isn't really that high... 60-65 SPM for marathon pace, perhaps up to 70 if it's really rough and/or cold. However I am decidedly shoulder-driven. Like Terry says, high tempo doesn't equal shoulder driven. I would add: low tempo doesn't equal hip driven.

There is some video of me swimming here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...dC-_7nrs#t=85s

It's the start of Wave 3 (of 3) at MIMS 2011. Can you guess which one I am? ;-)

Thanks for the engagement, Stuart.