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  #41  
Old 04-19-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post

Shifting pelvis forward and lifting sternum becomes more perception when horizontal in the water
"Shifting pelvis forward" sounds to me like the action of leveling your pelvis as described in Chi Running--i.e. shift pelvis forward to eliminate anterior pelvic tilt.

Does that sound right to you, Coach Stuart?

I'll play around with that kickboard posture drill tomorrow and see how I do. Thanks again.
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  #42  
Old 04-19-2017
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Yup, very similar in Chi Running "leveling pelvis". I think they also note head over shoulders, shoulders - hips - ankles in (posture) line. Hold the line as you lean forward, gravity takes body and the legs naturally spin. The more you lean and hold the line, the faster you go.

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 04-19-2017 at 08:29 PM.
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  #43  
Old 04-19-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Danny,

I'm with Zenturtle that using pelvic tilt to lift your hips is the wrong way to go. If I'm picturing it correctly, what you are describing is anterior pelvic tilt--that is, the pelvis gets higher in the back and lower in the front.

Proper posture and core activation actually comes from leveling your pelvis to avoid tilting, especially anterior pelvic tilt. I learned this from Chi Running, and it does feel like Zenturtle describes as tucking your tailbone in.

If you can get a copy of the book Chi Running, there's lots of good information there about how to eliminate anterior pelvic tilt and activate your core for good posture. It's well worth a read even if you're not a runner. It was COMPLETELY transformational for me as a runner, the way TI has been for my swimming.

That same kind of no-tilt posture with head in line with spine can be learned in yoga as well. Posture and core activation really go together.
Tom, I was also a fan of Chi Running, before arthritis in my hips forced me to stop. If you look in that book, you will note that he mentions the pyramidus muscles (to my recollection) which are on the stomach side just over the groin. He says that these muscles are critical to maintaining the correct posture. I believe that this is true in swimming as well. The perception of pelvic tilt is a very personal thing. In my case, I tend to sit with (unfortunately) a bend in my lower spine when I slump in a chair. To correct for this I have to use my butt muscles in what feels like a pelvic tilt. But the key thing is to balance the butt contraction with contraction of the pyramidus in front. This is what I believe straightens out the spine.

In retrospect, I believe that ZT is correct in saying that the position shown in the Shaules video is wrong. His problem is that he is not using the pyramidus muscles in front to balance the butt contraction in the back. Hope this helps clarify any misunderstanding.

What I still don't really understand is ZT's comment about hip flexors. Do you also feel that it is critical to stretch these out?
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  #44  
Old 04-19-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Salvo, I wasnt kicking that much, so the difference isnt very great.
Also the legs next to each other give more lift than one leg on top of the other.
That really sinks the legs.

Danny, The hipflexors connect the lower back to the front of the upperleg.
When I started to stretch the hipflexors I got lower back pain.
The upperleg pulls the lower back hollow if the hipflexor is tight. combining a flat lowerback with an upperleg tilted up behind the backplane becomes impossible with tigh hipflexors.
And that is the ideal startposition for the downkick. Lifting the leg up to alignment is not enough.
Shelley has the most streamlined kick of the internet. She also holds the legs up a while so that the water can attach to the leg again making a tapered streamlined shape. The solid water formed under the leg makes an ideal pushoff medium for the downkick to get maximum traction on the water.
Another bonus is the direction of the force on the water on the downkick, downward AND back.
Her downkick stops even above the main bodyline.
All the water is allowed to stream under the body without encountering sticking out upper legs, knees or stiff ankled feet.
No drag there, ideal classic tapered streamlined rear end





Compare that with a beginning TI kneekicker, who thinks he is driving his stroke from the hips.
Never go that route, or be prepared to spend some years unlearning it.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-19-2017 at 10:54 PM.
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  #45  
Old 04-19-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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ZT, thanks for the explanation. It helps but also leaves open a question for me. Are you particularly tight in this regard, or is this a problem I have as well? So what I just did was to lie flat on my back on the floor and compress the small of my back down so that it touches the floor. (This is not a natural position for my back, I had to use abdominal muscles to do it.) I wanted to see if my knees or the bottom of my legs come up off of the floor when I did this, and they did not. So I am not sure that my hip flexors really need stretching.

Beyond this, I must admit that there is a question of low hanging fruit here. I know that you are a much faster swimmer than I am, and also that you tend to be a perfectionist. In contrast, one of the more important flexibility issues that I already know I have is stiff shoulders, which require me to spear somewhat deeper (especially on the right side) than what I feel would be otherwise optimal. My question then is how much of an issue are tight hip flexors for me, if indeed I have them? As always, your thoughts would be appreciated.
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  #46  
Old 04-19-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Compare that with a beginning TI kneekicker, who thinks he is driving his stroke from the hips.
Never go that route, or be prepared to spend some years unlearning it.
Huh? What's "TI Kneekicker who thinks he's driving his stroke from the hips"?
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  #47  
Old 04-20-2017
gary p gary p is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Gary, ever experienced with a slightly more ballistic recovery? Your recovery looks a bit slow to me. A bit hesitant at start of recovery.
You have a bit of an windmilling timing for a TI forum guy, not a super long skate out style (like your style better actually). A timing which is good for connecting the recovering with the pulling arm more though, so why not use this technique a bit more?
Pellegrini as an example has a great style that spices her underwater power a bit with the accelleration of the arm over the water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXEbJKQKXw0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwZZJfRIVEo
That video was from before my discovery of TI. I haven't changed a lot, although I go a little more "front quadrant" than before for race distances 800M or longer.

Here's a link to a short course 100M race I swam a couple months later. That's the race where I feel most natural. Longer races for me are all about throttle control; I have to fight my natural inclination to go out too fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j_7LBu9NUw

My conditioning had already started to fall off a bit. It really showed on that last turn.
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  #48  
Old 04-20-2017
tomoy tomoy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Huh? What's "TI Kneekicker who thinks he's driving his stroke from the hips"?
x2... there are beginning knee kickers everywhere, what's unique about a TI knee kicker? I've never seen anything in TI that promotes the bent knee.
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  #49  
Old 04-20-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Danny, its hard to say if you need stretching from behind my computer screen.
If you lay on the stomach with a flat lower back, how far can you lift a straight leg from the ground. Whats the distance between knee and floor?
Does this action resemble what you feel during swimming in any way?

Alll I know is that its much harder in the water to do than on dryland. Try to kick like Shelly: both feets on top of the water with straight legs, and get a reality check.
(having floating legs to start with helps offcourse)

When I google TI swimmer the deep kneekicks are all over the place. If you like I can post a few hundred examples....
And plenty examples from TI coaches with the same problem too.
Its a combination of lack of balance and stalling in forward movement that triggers the kneekick.
Having better front tracktion and propulsion or a better kick pulls/pushes you through the too long propulsion collapse.
Perfect balance with a long bodyline can almost solve it, but too much guys will have a hard time achieving that, certainly at low speeds.
Thats not to say striving for perfact balance isnt important, but throwing out a drag anchor at the back while trying is a bad idea.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-20-2017 at 06:52 AM.
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  #50  
Old 04-20-2017
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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imho anybody who has ever touched a chair in his life needs hips stretch. Another test for Danny: assume the position kids use to watch TV - laying on belly with head and chest raised and sustained by the forearms -, but do it on the floor. From this position, lift the feet by bending the knees as if you wanted to take heels toward the glutes. Do you feel tension on your lower back? If so, your hips are tight. Less tension if you engage glutes? You have stretched your hip flexors.

Salvo
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