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  #11  
Old 10-17-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Salvo, Stuart,

I too have been trying to follow Stuart's advice to extend the arm down to the thigh before exiting. It does seem to increase my stroke length and, as so often happens, it introduces a whole new dynamic in my shoulder and body position even when the hand goes in again up front. I am still experimenting with this and trying to understand what is happening, but it is once again an example of how a change in one place impacts the whole body.
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  #12  
Old 10-18-2016
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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I too see the lateral movement and crispness of stroke as the missing link to a 1:30 pace.

I'd work on the lateral movement with some breathing every 4 strokes at 4K pace so there is no aerobic load and stay focused on the grout lines, put your nose over one of them and observe what happens to your nose position after rotation to breath.

To get a snappy stroke, think of the spearing section of the stroke as a putting the hand in a position with a click, rather than a legato movement.

I recently completed my first 10K swim and finished somewhere in the top 1/3 of 2,000 swimmers. These were the two things I noticed about both the swimmers I was overtaking and the ones zooming past.

Still head even during sighting and precise stroke placement from the ones going past and snaking legato movements from the people I was catching.
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  #13  
Old 10-18-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
I too see the lateral movement and crispness of stroke as the missing link to a 1:30 pace.

I'd work on the lateral movement with some breathing every 4 strokes at 4K pace so there is no aerobic load and stay focused on the grout lines, put your nose over one of them and observe what happens to your nose position after rotation to breath.

To get a snappy stroke, think of the spearing section of the stroke as a putting the hand in a position with a click, rather than a legato movement.

I recently completed my first 10K swim and finished somewhere in the top 1/3 of 2,000 swimmers. These were the two things I noticed about both the swimmers I was overtaking and the ones zooming past.

Still head even during sighting and precise stroke placement from the ones going past and snaking legato movements from the people I was catching.
Andy, congrats for your 10k! Where was it held? I remember you were training for the 50m, you then chose a slightly longer event I see ;)

Thanks for the interesting tips: about the lateral movement, I'm already integrating more snorkel swimming into my sessions and I should also consider to vary the breathing pattern as you suggest (every 4, maybe every 3 like I once used to do).

About the other tip, I'm not sure I got you right: by "putting the hand in a position with a click rather than a legato movement" do you also mean hitting the water more powerfully (like with a straighter arm recovery for instance)?

The day I took the 2 videos above I also recorded this one, where I swim at a faster pace with more oomph in the spearing section of the stroke (see the way back, the way out is too splashing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj9TtRV86vE

Is this less legato than the previous videos or do you mean something else?

Salvo
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Salvo, what I see in your most recent video is an asymmetry in right and left recovery. It seems to me that on the left side you are swinging your hand a little too wide in a somewhat circular motion, whereas on the right your hand seems to follow a nice linear path in the direction of your motion.
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  #15  
Old 10-18-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Hi Salvo, what I see in your most recent video is an asymmetry in right and left recovery. It seems to me that on the left side you are swinging your hand a little too wide in a somewhat circular motion, whereas on the right your hand seems to follow a nice linear path in the direction of your motion.
Hi Danny, yes, partly is overrotation when I breathe right (I'm working on it), partly is because my left shoulder is less flexible than the right one.

Cheers,
Salvo
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  #16  
Old 10-18-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi Danny, yes, partly is overrotation when I breathe right (I'm working on it), partly is because my left shoulder is less flexible than the right one.

Cheers,
Salvo
Hi Salvo, sounds like you are already aware of this, but, if you are overrotating to the right when you breath, you are probably underrotating to the left, especially at fast tempo. If you are underrotating to the left, you will have problems with recovery, regardless of how flexible your shoulder is. So fixing this problem on the right may solve everything.
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  #17  
Old 10-21-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Hi Salvo, sounds like you are already aware of this, but, if you are overrotating to the right when you breath, you are probably underrotating to the left, especially at fast tempo. If you are underrotating to the left, you will have problems with recovery, regardless of how flexible your shoulder is. So fixing this problem on the right may solve everything.
Exactly, in fact I'm currently fixing this problem by

- doing a lot of snorkel swimming,
- stretching forward a bit less (overstretching leads me to overrotation and misalignment),
- preferring a light flutter kick over 2bk (a light flutter kick keeps rotation more in control)

and it seems I'm having good outcomes for now. We'll see...

Thanks for the feedback, happy swimming.
Salvo
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  #18  
Old 10-22-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Salvo,

your outcome is satisfying you, so I should not add anything. Just thoughts which bumped up when I was reading your post...
Quote:
- doing a lot of snorkel swimming,
- stretching forward a bit less (overstretching leads me to overrotation and misalignment),
- preferring a light flutter kick over 2bk (a light flutter kick keeps rotation more in control)
- Sure, you're using a centered swimmer's snorkel...

- Is it really possible to overstretch and overrotate, if your hands are steady on wide railtracks?

- Did you ever use the 2bk (only) just to support and control rotation? (Feels more like kicking sideways than downward.)

Best regards,
Werner
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  #19  
Old 10-22-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Hi Werner, good points:

- yes, it's a centered snorkel

- agree, steady hands on wide tracks are one way - but not the only one - to prevent overstretch and overrotation. At the moment however I prefer swimming on narrow but parallel tracks because it feels more compact and streamlined.

- yes, especially during long open water swims, it's also a good way to prevent cramps and save energy. I believe a good swimmer should be able to master 2bk, 4bk and 6bk and switch between the 3 depending on the need.

Cheers,
Salvo
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  #20  
Old 11-02-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Hi everyone,
here is a little update after trying to fix some flaws you noticed from the previous videos. Stuart's advice about not cutting too short at the finish of the stroke was enlightening. I still do it when I'm not fresh and focused, but at least I'm aware of it now.

https://youtu.be/JIh8P0NORJA

I find my head still moves too much and my kick too (talking about the left downkick when I breathe right), but I fixed some overrotation and my pull path is a bit more precise. I also improved my 400m and 200m times by respectively 7s and 2s, so I'm pretty satisfied.

Any further comments are appreciated.
Thanks everybody and happy swimming!

Salvo
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