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  #61  
Old 08-29-2013
terry terry is offline
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cpa pfs
Welcome and I sincerely hope we'll see more from you. When I read the criticisms some level at TI of 'pretty but slow' I always think of precisely the perspective you have offered--how trivial all that seems to those who had spent years, maybe decades, struggling to swim. And now--thanks at least in part to TI--can enjoy what those on this forum find so rewarding.
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  #62  
Old 08-29-2013
cpa_pfs cpa_pfs is offline
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Originally Posted by terry View Post
cpa pfs
When I read the criticisms some level at TI of 'pretty but slow' I always think of precisely the perspective you have offered--how trivial all that seems to those who had spent years, maybe decades, struggling to swim.
Yeah, my tri coach (group leader) recently made a comment that I was "resort swimming". He has a really aggressive swim form and high turnover rate and he wanted me to speed up my stroke..

At first it offended me. Then I thought about it. What does "resort swimming" imply to me? Smooth, relaxed, efficient. So I took it as a compliment. Another thought occurred to me. When I work with a newbie to running ... I never focus on speed first. I work with them on breathing first and then form. Later we can work on speed. So why would learning to swim be any different? So I ignore his uh ... input.


Last year, I tried to master endurance swimming. I wanted to do an Ironman. I couldn't. I didn't. In retrospect, I realize that I was using my arms like the fixed cranks on my bike. Always 180 degrees opposite of each other.

All spring I trained every run and every ride with my buddy who did another IM in May. We ran over 1,000 miles and cycled more than that. Yet I couldn't do the IM with him because I couldn't swim a mere 25M much less 2.4 miles.

Now, with TI, I am swimming hundreds of meters. I now dream about the stroke ... the rhythym. By not starting the pull until my reach hand is entering the water I now glide ... I now have time to breathe ... I am no longer frantic or rushing. I get it now. An IM is now in the near future.

As I said ... all that chirping about TI in this thread is white noise to me. All I care about is that I now feel that I can reach my goal. For that ... I thank you.


BTW: Slow ... hmmmm ... well to me it is when you swim 10M and have to stand up in the pool gasping for air. That results in a really sloooooow swim pace ... and is embarrassing.

Last edited by cpa_pfs : 08-29-2013 at 11:37 PM.
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  #63  
Old 08-30-2013
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Recent posts are off topic. Just sayin'.

"Efficacy of TI form in rough water."
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  #64  
Old 08-30-2013
cpa_pfs cpa_pfs is offline
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Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Recent posts are off topic. Just sayin'.

"Efficacy of TI form in rough water."
The next time a thread on any forum on any topic that is 7 pages long ... stays on a narrow topic only with nothing off topic ... will be the first time ... ever recorded.

And I don't feel the need not to own my statements with a "Just sayin'" ... but then that too is "off topic".

Last edited by cpa_pfs : 08-30-2013 at 03:30 PM.
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  #65  
Old 08-30-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Recent posts are off topic. Just sayin'.

"Efficacy of TI form in rough water."
Here's rough water swimming ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ATSHeoHnM

You may also be interested in knowing what the best thinks about this issue (Thomas Lurz has been the best for quite some time now):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwLHlqu2U30

Now the fun thing, at least something *I* found fun and interesting... At that level S2BFree, there are no real debates. Everyone without any exception is working on developing both DPS and rate. They all work on Catchup drill, but also on material that allows them for improving their sustainable stroke rate. They're all aware that you must flip faster when conditions are rough.

I had an absolute delightful talk with legendary coach Ron Jacks (a real legend, coaching Rich Weinberger, 3rd at London, etc). We discussed drills. To give you an idea, Ron used to swim with Doc Councilman (at nat/internat level).

I asked him which were his favorites etc. He answered that his father is a physician, and that he consider drills just like pills. He prescribes them. All possible available drills can somehow be helpful, if it's tied to the right problem to fix, or attribute to improve. He obviously never heard about TI nor about SS. When I ask him about what was more important, ie the rate or the dps, he answered that for a swimmer who's weakness is dps, then dps is more important (vice versa). Ron can be seen on this interview clip with Thomas. He's the annoyed person in the back ground who can't believe that I'm blocking the access in/out on the dock ;-)

The debate seems to exist on the internet, certainly not among the best OW swimmers/coaches in the world as of now.

**edit**
Oh just found another clip depicting the end of the race. That's how races are being won at the highest level. Everyone on high rev, no room for glide on the finish. Forget about your form, it went off the window long ago. Everyone is dead. Race was very hard. Still one more huge effort to go through. With 26k in money prices, every spot is worth several hundreds dollars. That's life, at a high level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdjAiIvqBEs

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-30-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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  #66  
Old 08-30-2013
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
At that level S2BFree, there are no real debates. Everyone without any exception is working on developing both DPS and rate. They all work on Catchup drill, but also on material that allows them for improving their sustainable stroke rate. They're all aware that you must flip faster when conditions are rough.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
The debate seems to exist on the internet, certainly not among the best OW swimmers/coaches in the world as of now.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Everyone on high rev, no room for glide on the finish. Forget about your form, it went off the window long ago. Everyone is dead.
Exactly.
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  #67  
Old 08-30-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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This though, applies to FINA/ITU level chaps (and obviously to most wannabes). At 75spm, my guy missed the pack! Man did they start off fast. No way that we develop more DPS in prep for next year. We will elevate the rate up to over 80rpm, targeting 85rpm. That should put us mid pack next year, right were we wanna be.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 08-30-2013 at 10:16 PM.
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  #68  
Old 08-31-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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I agree with Swim2Bfree, it does all seem way off topic now, or is your answer Charles that TI is ineffective in open water, but maybe elsewhere, or just that it's not effective at all or ..??

BrandonT hasn't shown any interest in coming back to his subject so perhaps this thread was always disingenuous. Its title concerns "efficacy" - perhaps trying to make a distinction with "efficiency" - but in either case it was not about speed.

I can't imagine that anyone here, out of a love of TI anyway, is interested in swimming like the folk in the clip you attach Charles. If my aim were merely to go fast I'd get a jet-ski Personally speaking, although I can watch athletics (in water or out) for a little while, I find it a bit like watching a screensaver. Unless there is something of beauty and wonder in it, like Sun Yang say, I just tune out, but whatever floats your boat I guess. A lot of people here get fired up about lorry pulling championships, but I've no hankering to go in for that either!

The "debate" (if there is one) seems to me anyway, to be between chalk and cheese. What I don't get though is why, when convinced that this "debate" is dead, you seem to have a hunger to continue it. All these stats demonstrate to me is that chalk works better on a blackboard. Give me a good chunk of cheddar or a fine brie any day!
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  #69  
Old 09-04-2013
POLIDORI POLIDORI is offline
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It was long since I last swam with my brother.
During the last two years I had an operation on my hip and then on my back last spring.
We used to go swim in OW even on winter days with our suits.
We have not done many times during the last months.

He took on triathlon, while I have been trying to stay in shape by running, swimming and cycling as much as I could, but obviously not as much as I wanted.

My brother's style has improved a lot. I remember telling him all his mistakes moving his arms, positioning his body, etc. Now he swims almost like a pro. He finished Franckfurt's IM last in July and finished ahead of some friends with more experience.

I do not run that much. Not cycle that much. Do not swim that much. But I always loved swimming more than anything. I fell in love with TI the moment I discovered this... movement?

Yesterday we finally gathered for an OW swim. Like 2 km, as we had a family celebration and it got pretty late to get to the sea.

I can say I hold my place, and I did not swam hard at any moment. We swam together side by side. We swam 1 straight km really far from the shore. When we did the return-lap (1 km again, more or less), I can tell I was easily swimming ahead of my brother, who had clearly a faster and shorter stroke then me.
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  #70  
Old 09-05-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I agree with Swim2Bfree, it does all seem way off topic now, or is your answer Charles that TI is ineffective in open water, but maybe elsewhere, or just that it's not effective at all or ..??
Hi mate, I think I've addressed your question in this post here (belonging to the current thread)

http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...5&postcount=45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
The "debate" (if there is one) seems to me anyway, to be between chalk and cheese. What I don't get though is why, when convinced that this "debate" is dead, you seem to have a hunger to continue it.
I usually answer comments or questions, like it's the case at the moment.

That topic is an interesting one, and it can be discussed with respect to everyone's personal goals. You smartly point out the fact that how fast one wants to stroke is mainly dependent on the personal goals (and capabilities).

Now where I respectfully disagree with you, is with the idea that it is almost inevitable that a TI lover would need to quit TI in order to access to ultrafast OW swimming in rough conditions. In other words, I think it is possible to love TI, and love high performance ow elite swimming (whether it's in the context of ITU, WTC or FINA).
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