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  #51  
Old 04-12-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimust View Post
can I kick with a lose thigh without engaging the thigh at all? I don't think so.
In my Shinji toe flick I deliberately keep the thigh 100% lose, and I snap from below the knee. That's not a kick.
In my opinion, many posters on this thread just try to keep inside their safety zone. I don't say their kick is wrong. I say that the toe flick is a different technique made for a different purpose.
Its all in our heads :)

One last question for all of you:
Why would Shinji change the name and not call it a kick? What made him change it to "snap"?
The word "kick" is much more common in swimming than "snap", but Shinji insisted on changing the name of his leg action. That name change in itself is enough to tell you all that its not a kick. Shinji thought about it before he changed the name. Its funny how you all ignore that. As if he doesn't know what he is doing... :)
Oh great! while typing the last paragraph I got my sanity back and understood my own thoughts :)
I am correct 1000% :) Why did Shinji changed the name of his leg action?... simple! Its not a kick.
This discussion is NUTS! To think that I was called nut... haha

@Janos, there is something bad flowing in the Liverpool water! It effects your thinking. Do you think that Shinji changed the name from 'kick' to 'snap' because he was bored or what exactly?.....

I prefer to laugh at this discussion than despair about it ;)
omg, all these smart people above ignored the fact that Shinji wanted to change the name to "snap" because he had a reason. This just made my day. Thank you all for the fish! :) :) haha...

The basic act of changing the name is a give away about what the Shinji leg is doing. How could I miss that and doubt it?
That's my most funny thread EVER on the forum! It just got so much better! ;)

One last word:
Shinji picks his words carefully. If it was a "kick" then he would have kept the name "kick", and then explained how he "kicks".
He changed the name because its not a kick.

planet earth is square and flat my friends ;)
that was pure fun
If I understand you well, Shinji is swimming 2 beat snap, not 2 beat kick.
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  #52  
Old 04-12-2013
dprevish dprevish is offline
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dprevish
Default Function of leg movement

Forgive me if I'm misguided, and perhaps I'm missing the relevancy of the discussion. But whether a kick or a snap, I don't think that either term is wrong. They both accomplish an important function of the swim stroke that makes then both important to a swimmer. Whether for Terry or Shinji and whatever name they referred to it as. I'd attribute it to a different reference to an underlying component of swimming, allowing for some variance in technique and body types from individual to individual. My question is: What is the this component? Propulsion, balance? Or is it both?
I find the Shinji method the closest that I've had to follow in my TI practice, and believe his stroke bears enough identity to TI to class it as "TI". When I few his videos I think that to emulate him would bring success. I think that there is no question of the salience and merit of Swimust's points.
I'm pondering from a self-coaching aspect the mechanics of this leg action that the 2 beat kick accomplishes for a successful swimmer. Logic says that this type of kick will save energy, a hallmark of the TI method.
But could someone care to elaborate of what successful swimmers' leg action really does (either kick, snap or flick) Perhaps there is another thread that covers this to direct me to?
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  #53  
Old 04-12-2013
Janos Janos is offline
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Dave, there is a distinction between the TI kick and the flutter kick. The two beat kick is rotational kick and the flutter kick is solely for motor boat type propulsion. Two options for different types of freestyle. Although you can add a flutter to a two beat kick in between the rotational kicks for a more potent stroke, but it needs a lot of practice in the timing dept to make it quicker than two beat on its own.

Janos
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  #54  
Old 04-12-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi Dave

The question of how much propulsion if any the kick (or flick or snap) provides has been occupying the minds of swimmers, coaches and swimming scientists since the early days of the introduction of the crawl stroke to Australia, Europe and America. Presumably the South Sea Islanders, Hawaiians, Native Americans and other so-called primitive people just swam it without giving too much thought to what their legs were doing.

Very early on it was shown that swimming a double overarm stroke with the legs tied was faster than swimming the Trudgen with a scissor kick and gradually by trial and error the types of kicking found today were developed, which, basically, in modern terms, are the two-beat and six-beat with subtle variations such as the two-beat crossover and the four-beat, which is made up of a three beat on one side and a single beat on the other, usually the breathing side. Early experiments with eight beat and ten-beat kicks seem to have been abandoned for the time being, but I understand that a five-beat has been observed.

Nowadays for races up to 200 yards or meters the six-beat reigns supreme, although there may be the odd two-beat kicker to be found. Above this distance the two-beat and its close cousin the four-beat seem to predominate, although some six-beat kickers are found at all distances.

The contribution to propulsion no doubt varies from simmer to swimmer, but all are agreed, I think, that the main purpose of the kick is to maintain a good body line and to counteract some of the disturbing effects of the arm stroke.

You will find a good history of the crawl stroke if you follow the link I posted earlier to the articles by Forbes Carlisle.
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  #55  
Old 04-12-2013
dprevish dprevish is offline
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dprevish
Default two beat

Janos and Richard,

It stands to reason that the 2bt would act as somewhat of a balance stabilizer. The rotational aspect of it would make sense too.
Richard I'll look up that other post, that could help me a lot too.
Thanks again!
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  #56  
Old 04-13-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
The contribution to propulsion no doubt varies from simmer to swimmer, but all are agreed, I think, that the main purpose of the kick is to maintain a good body line and to counteract some of the disturbing effects of the arm stroke.
I would add to this that due to the nature of the foot, the way it's designed, it's virtually impossible to study its contribution to actual propulsion. None of the existing literature has managed to convince me. This topic is far more complex than it first may seem.

Before a foot can evacuate water backward (thus contributing to propulsion), it first pushes water downward (thus contributing to balance/cutting drag). So any improvement in speed as a result of kicking more may, and probably is, the result of a little bit of both.

Techsuits have taught us that when comes to cutting drag, the slightest contribution is enough to make a difference. Swimmers wearing them did not improve their time as a result of increasing propulsive forces, but rather as a result of improving body position.
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  #57  
Old 04-13-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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@dprevish,
my understanding is this:
the Shinji flick is a very "localized" action, with a far less range than what classic TI swimmers use in their 2bk. The goal (purpose) of his kick is only to release the hip and create a separation of the hip. He doesn't use it for any other purpose, not even balance! His "tiny flick" is also saving him energy on leg action.
A classic swim phrase says: "less is sometimes more in swimming".

I worked real hard to figure out all this stuff. I couldn't understand that without understanding first the hip roll and torso twist. Everything has a reason and a purpose. Its not just falling from the sky...


*meanwhile, all this time the Japanese TI guys must be laughing hard at all the English speakers trying to break the "Shinji code"... :)
They learn all that in 3 days workshop. 3 days, 3 years... its all the same ;)
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Last edited by swimust : 04-13-2013 at 01:53 AM.
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  #58  
Old 04-13-2013
azamy azamy is offline
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Default Where's Shinji?

I would really love Shinji to jump in and give his insights about all this "Shinji TI" talk.

Shinji if you are there please surprise us :)
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  #59  
Old 04-13-2013
Mike from NS Mike from NS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azamy View Post
I would really love Shinji to jump in and give his insights about all this "Shinji TI" talk.

Shinji if you are there please surprise us :)
I agree with you azamy !! That would be way too cool to have his input and clarifications. But there is a lot to talk about and time is a valuable commodity.

San Shinji ... please come out, come out ... wherever you are !

Mike ;)
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  #60  
Old 04-13-2013
CoachShinjiT CoachShinjiT is offline
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Default Thank you for your support.

Hi all,

First, I really appreciate your enthusiasm about TI and contribution to increase the number of views of my YouTube video.

Second, I agree there are many things we can learn from videos and messages. I used to be one of middle aged TI learners and I have got so much effective information from this forum. So we welcome your insights and opinions.

As for my "kick/flick/snap," you can think of anything and try anything to make your swim more efficient. If you do not feel right, you can post what you did on this forum and other TI learners and coaches will help you to solve the problem. Please make sure to clarify the purpose of what you do. We sometimes get lost by focusing on detail things too much.
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Latest information for lessons:
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Shinji's swim video (No.1 worldwide on YouTube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJpFVvho0o4&fmt=6

Last edited by CoachShinjiT : 04-15-2013 at 03:39 PM.
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