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  #91  
Old 11-03-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carltontong View Post
when focusing on the hip rotation, do you think that you need to use your abdominal mucle?
More the lateral ones yes. But in reality yes, even the flat one works but in a lateral pattern I would speculate.

upper right pulls lower left... mmmm to rotate right I'd assume.

This is a smart question. So smart that I am far from having those answers.

The best swimo-anatomy classes I received for a whilst, was those of Coach Suzanne, but since I only know of a quarter of the muscle groups she usually refers to when describing body rotation, I can't really re-explain this stuff. This is how much of an edge these physicians (pffeu..) have on a self taught coach like me.

Smart dynamic core engagement, where pretty much every muscle group all around the body will need to either contract or relax at some point of a full rotation cycle, applying just enough force for just long enough to maintain perfect posture in spite of the forces applied by the swimmer, which naturally cause tensions which distord this posture.

Sun Yang probably swims 58min easily short course meter at 13-14 strokes per length. Given the tremendous level of force required on each of these few strokes to make it under 15 ever 25m, it takes massive core muscles adjustments (dynamically) to maintain streamlined posture.

It's really as simple as that. And simply the reason why I stick to my works on this increasingly frustrating isolated rotation drill ;-)

For a great pourcentage among you here, it's one of the hardest mystery to master. You guys are breaking posture so much when you move.

Question.... If experts would like to take a bet.

How fast per 100m over say.... 400m. Can someone reasonably fit, between say age of 40 and age of 60, hold, given perfect posture and alignment. I mean no real effort put to the stroke here.... For me that would be roughly 1min40 when relatively fit, and 1min45 when entirely out of shape. No real pain here. Walking pace.

My personal guess would be around 1:50/100, possibly 1:55 for those whos body has structurally been modified a bit (weight of all those years).

Posture/alignment and easy balance are the two biggest areas where gains can be made, and by far.

That's the fun with Isolated rotation experience. Once I become good at teaching this. I would like to literally take time trial before, time trial after and see the exact impact of having mastered body rotation isolated from any arm pull and leg kick action. It's just a mind game this thing ;-)

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 11-03-2012 at 02:19 AM.
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  #92  
Old 11-03-2012
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Hey Charles,

How would you describe a well executed IR drill ? Is that feeling-based ? speed ?
I mean, I've been trying that a few times already.
It feels quite good to me.
But not sure it *is* as good as it feels.
I'm far from a sub 2 min/100m walking pace effort (rather race speed) so I'm pretty sure to land in you high percentage stats of people having hard time mastering it.
But I do feel that rocking thing, back 'n forth, coming from my falling shoulder.

Strangely, 2 persons have stopped to talk to me about that drill over a week(I'm the guy at the pool nobody *ever* talk to).
Kinda : "What the hell are you doing ?" :-) . Not sure that was sarcastic, or really trying to learn something...
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  #93  
Old 11-03-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD_l_enclume View Post
Hey Charles,

How would you describe a well executed IR drill ? Is that feeling-based ? speed ?
I mean, I've been trying that a few times already.
It feels quite good to me.
But not sure it *is* as good as it feels.
I'm far from a sub 2 min/100m walking pace effort (rather race speed) so I'm pretty sure to land in you high percentage stats of people having hard time mastering it.
But I do feel that rocking thing, back 'n forth, coming from my falling shoulder.

Strangely, 2 persons have stopped to talk to me about that drill over a week(I'm the guy at the pool nobody *ever* talk to).
Kinda : "What the hell are you doing ?" :-) . Not sure that was sarcastic, or really trying to learn something...
Oh interesting question here. Quite simple:

1. Do you move forward or not?
This is already a hard statement. Propulsion with this drill is so minimal that if you do it well, but yet break the posture, it's possible that the net effect be that you remain still

2. Most important... Can you guaranty, that you Rotate first, then sweep with the hand. The most common mistake being to sweep *to* rotate. One still gets a bit of propulsion unfortunately performing the drill reversed (ie, sweeping then rotating). So this is more difficult to evaluate.

So if you can make sure that Rotation occurs independently from the sculling motion, and that you're moving forward, having fun and feeling good along the way, you're on the right track. At one point, with practice, you may start being able to set your mind on any component involved; same principle as being in a dark room for long enough to actually start distinguishing some details...

For those who have no clue with the IR is, ie swimmers that know about technique and are wondering what the heck you're doing, the closest you get to IR is with sculling drill. In fact, the IR is the only sculling drill out there that implements body rotation, making it a Freestyle specific sculling drill.

Plllllease I beg you please. Persist and tell me if you feel something in your full stroke, ie this pendulum effect and tighter/smarter core whilst rotating.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 11-03-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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  #94  
Old 11-03-2012
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Thanks Charles,

I do move (slowly) forward, but next time I'll try to evaluate the timing of sculling vs rotating first.

What I remember from this afternoon though is that I need to send my arm a bit in the air behind me to feel its weight coming down, sending my body to the other side.

I also tried your NAD + NAD + 1 arm (don't remember how you named it) which is fun.
Each NAD stroke feels good, but I do loose the weigth shift feeling on the 1-arm stroke.
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  #95  
Old 11-04-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD_l_enclume View Post
Thanks Charles,

I do move (slowly) forward, but next time I'll try to evaluate the timing of sculling vs rotating first.
Ah.

An occasion to try to coach here.

OK. One thing that could probably be done, at least as a mental image, would be to wrap the whole upper body including both upper arms with a big strap. Tight it just enough so that those arms won't move anymore.

Propulsion should be triggered by the upward phase of the br. Since the arms are strapped tight at upper body level, there's just forearms that move right? Use the as those nice colorful dancing tropical red dotted fish' side fins. Those that move with grace. Em I progressing on the poetic side at least? lol

I'm half serious here. timing is such that body that rotates up brings the arm alone with him. The arm is taken in the right direction so that alone could almost generate a bit of propulsion. Then finish off with the gentle scull.

The speed that one can obtain is function of 2 things: Quality of body posture (including balance, and alignment) then efficiency of the sculling.

The sculling component is the most easy.

Here, I didn't want to post this clip here, as I felt there were far too many references that this site doesn't need, that may be undesirable. But some people have told me that it was fine. Anyway, my swimmers wear those caps as I have strong tie and friendship with Paul and Adam, etc, but I'm not promoting them through this clip, which in reality kind of goes against a lot of values that Adam and Paul promote with the UNCO drill.

But it gives you a better idea of the usefulness of NAD, and by the same token, of IR. Think of it as a LEGO blocks game. Remove the Pull, you get NAD, add an arm ever cycle, you get single arm (sculling of the opposite arm can and should remain in my opinion), add an arm every cycle and a half, then you get NAD-3. Add a pull, you have some IR with a stroke every cycle and a half. It's a fun LEGO game.

Here's my clip on single arm drill with references to this concept in it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGUNNrpny2U
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  #96  
Old 11-04-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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I understand everything now. Really. So simple. And hmmmmm.... irrefutable I believe. Try me on that.

Rotation from the hips.

It requires involvement of abdominal muscles, and obliques obviously.

The magic. Is that when the hips rotatate (by a snsp), the momentum is still going the other direction.

This is the magic. Paging an expert in physics please.

Don't know the theory, but it exists I'm sure, and it's simple. Spring effect? Your body was going upward and now all of a sudden, your hips want to go downward, by a snap. That snap requires involvement of abs, which are perfect for this job.

So. Where does this take us. Very simple. Abs creates the shift, throwing energy in it. If limbs benefit in any possible way from this, then it's irrefutable that body rotation triggers power.

Just let a decade or two to science to catch up. This is how it's always always been, and probably how it forever will be.
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  #97  
Old 11-05-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post

Just let a decade or two to science to catch up. This is how it's always always been, and probably how it forever will be.
Pet peeve: When a newspaper articles reads in the headline: SCIENCE DISCOVERS NEW PHENOMENON....

When actually...athletes & coaches discovered it years before!! Science validated it.
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  #98  
Old 11-05-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Charles a 1.40-1.45 walking pace, what sr would you adopt for that?
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  #99  
Old 11-05-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Charles a 1.40-1.45 walking pace, what sr would you adopt for that?
That would be my out of shape metrics, which I never actually tested. I once tested what the metrics would be when I'm relatively fit. And it came down to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBBN6uLLaJE

58 spm (so a bit below 1.0) for a pace that's slightly faster than 1:25 per 100m, so 5:40 for 400 roughly. Don't be mislead by the guy holding the stop watch, he was sleeping early into the test. Didn't hit the start button when I pushed off. Effort level is very low. The avg stroke count being 15, I'd assume that if I went up to 17 (really out of shape) for the same rate, this places me close to 1:35. So I'd say for 1:45... hmmmm it's a good question. 18 strokes at 55spm maybe? But I'm yet to experience it. At the moment, I'm totally out of shape so I may try it, would be a good first try for my SwimSense watch...

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 11-05-2012 at 03:44 PM.
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  #100  
Old 11-05-2012
Janos Janos is offline
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Charles, I have just watched the video showing the single arm drill, and am wondering about its relevance to the TI style, and also your other video showing you swimming at walking pace. You have an admirable stroke, but one that I feel is more at home on a Swimsmooth forum.
One arm drills were advocated by Terry a few years ago, but were refined into the drills we currently use, I still use them to refine my stroke like many others, but with a two beat kick. I fail to see its relevance to a thread about hip drive if the exercise is performed whilst the swimmer is kicking like a demon. A far more productive exercise for the development of the awareness of using the hips is the underswitch or spearswitch exercise. The downstroke of the kick is linked to the whole movement during the switch, surely to adopt an egg beater style six beat kick whilst drilling would be counter productive to somebody wanting to master the two beat kick. This two beat then segues into a TI style six beat, which again has the emphasis on the downbeat of the leg that initiates the stroke, and is then followed by two flutter kicks.

Regards

Janos
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