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  #11  
Old 04-10-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomoy View Post
Ah... Yow!!! They make it look so easy - especially the entry sans splash.

@sclim: Yes you follow the thought-stream as intended. Assuming the core offers the greatest opportunity and strength via a kick, hip-drive and rotation, harnessing it for propulsion is wasted if the catch is not in place - so then the question becomes when to time this core drive?

The earliest would be at the catch when you first establish a hold on the water, say elbow at head level, forearm dropping vertically below it, and the latest would be when the elbow is around the hip. Then there is everything in between.

A) My experience in applying the core drive early has variable success. I focus on establishing the EVF, hit it with the kick, feel that surge, but then I wonder what my muscles are doing for the remainder of the stroke. It feels like "Bam" then "doo dee doo." If I'm not careful and hit the kick too early or before I'm stabilized the torque running through my shoulder results in pain the next day/s. It's a very fine slice of perfect timing that allows me to get it right without hurting myself. In my mind's eye, I see Sun Yang and think, yeah, that's what it should look like! But it probably looks like just another dude in the pool.

B) So instead of chasing that EVF and the long stroke opportunity it provides, I settled into a pretty TI-normal catch defined by just letting the lead hand drop into a shoulder level perpendicular position with bent-arm as I apply the kick. It feels like "ah... whoom... la...." It's smooth and is totally safe with my shoulder (and back), but I notice that trying to get up-to-tempo takes some back muscle work getting the recovery arm moving. If I don't focus on getting that recovery going, tempo drops off and I end up lazily slowing down and losing my front quadrant, weight forward timing (because my recovery is lazily making its way forward), hips drop as I get tired and things fall apart eventually.

C) Timing the kick and core drive later feels pretty weird after having settled on B for so long. There's a long phase of gentle catch, setting the anchor trying to hold the hull at the back end without firing the kick early, but then when the kick comes it's almost as if the body has been coiling up ready to fire, and its surge is easy to harness. It feels like "ah.. aahh.. chooo!" The energy throws the arm into a quick arc landing essentially into forward spear and I find myself in TI-wide-catch-up drill both hands up front and realize that my hips are higher because I got my weight into the front quadrant so quickly. If you're still reading this, then you probably can now see how this late application of the core drive can result in flinging water into the air as the arm arcs forward. On the down side, I will say that if I'm not subtle (I kicked and twisted too hard when first getting used to it), or if I don't tuck my tummy and activate some abs, I can come away with lower back pain with this technique. So my focus lately has been subtle kick, core position and activation. So far so good.

I think if we're generating a lot of back-splash we're either using a ton of arm strength, or we're firing the core later. Assuming neither Terry or Darbi are sprinters I think this late core-drive might be a component for success that hasn't been much verbalized, or at least it's new to me. Of course I didn't just come up with this. In class Coach Stuart has been encouraging us to experiment with some Boomer theories. We have some very smooth swimmers in class who have a very pronounced careful recovery and spear, almost a pause from the ear-hop days. And this has helped several iron out that pause.

I still struggle with C) and controlling the energy. At the end of a swim, if I want to pick it up but think my arms don't have any more gas left in them, it's surprisingly there and effective. But I haven't gotten it into a nice efficiency box. Usually applying this late energy means my heart-rate climbs and I get out of breath. So that's what I'm working on now. How to use this jet pack for 30 minutes non-stop. (@Danny this is where it's easy for me to see this as a sprinting solution - I'm still searching for ways to make it a distance solution.)
Tomoy, there are interesting similarities and differences here between you and me. I am a much slower swimmer, relaxed pace around 2 min/100yd, and, like you, I have the sense that timing the kick to push me past the anchor is very sensitive to errors in timing. I also have the feeling that this has a side effect of rushing my catch somewhat, as if my front is having trouble keeping up with my back. I have a bad shoulder and this may explain part of it. So if I time my kick to the start of recovery it is much easier for me to be patient with my catch, which has the effect of dropping my SPL somewhat. In fact, this may be my default timing, whereas timing the kick to push me past the anchor is something that I am still trying to learn. On some days I can get it and then my SPL really drops (like 1 or even 2) but it is a rare occurrence.

By the way, I love your phonetic descriptions of these various alternatives; they really resonate with me. The ahhhhhh... choo! is definitely my default option.
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  #12  
Old 04-10-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomoy View Post
Ah... Yow!!! They make it look so easy - especially the entry sans splash.

@sclim: Yes you follow the thought-stream as intended. Assuming the core offers the greatest opportunity and strength via a kick, hip-drive and rotation, harnessing it for propulsion is wasted if the catch is not in place - so then the question becomes when to time this core drive?

The earliest would be at the catch when you first establish a hold on the water, say elbow at head level, forearm dropping vertically below it, and the latest would be when the elbow is around the hip. Then there is everything in between.

A) My experience in applying the core drive early has variable success. I focus on establishing the EVF, hit it with the kick, feel that surge, but then I wonder what my muscles are doing for the remainder of the stroke. It feels like "Bam" then "doo dee doo." If I'm not careful and hit the kick too early or before I'm stabilized the torque running through my shoulder results in pain the next day/s. It's a very fine slice of perfect timing that allows me to get it right without hurting myself. In my mind's eye, I see Sun Yang and think, yeah, that's what it should look like! But it probably looks like just another dude in the pool.

B) So instead of chasing that EVF and the long stroke opportunity it provides, I settled into a pretty TI-normal catch defined by just letting the lead hand drop into a shoulder level perpendicular position with bent-arm as I apply the kick. It feels like "ah... whoom... la...." It's smooth and is totally safe with my shoulder (and back), but I notice that trying to get up-to-tempo takes some back muscle work getting the recovery arm moving. If I don't focus on getting that recovery going, tempo drops off and I end up lazily slowing down and losing my front quadrant, weight forward timing (because my recovery is lazily making its way forward), hips drop as I get tired and things fall apart eventually.

C) Timing the kick and core drive later feels pretty weird after having settled on B for so long. There's a long phase of gentle catch, setting the anchor trying to hold the hull at the back end without firing the kick early, but then when the kick comes it's almost as if the body has been coiling up ready to fire, and its surge is easy to harness. It feels like "ah.. aahh.. chooo!" The energy throws the arm into a quick arc landing essentially into forward spear and I find myself in TI-wide-catch-up drill both hands up front and realize that my hips are higher because I got my weight into the front quadrant so quickly. If you're still reading this, then you probably can now see how this late application of the core drive can result in flinging water into the air as the arm arcs forward. On the down side, I will say that if I'm not subtle (I kicked and twisted too hard when first getting used to it), or if I don't tuck my tummy and activate some abs, I can come away with lower back pain with this technique. So my focus lately has been subtle kick, core position and activation. So far so good.

I think if we're generating a lot of back-splash we're either using a ton of arm strength, or we're firing the core later. Assuming neither Terry or Darbi are sprinters I think this late core-drive might be a component for success that hasn't been much verbalized, or at least it's new to me. Of course I didn't just come up with this. In class Coach Stuart has been encouraging us to experiment with some Boomer theories. We have some very smooth swimmers in class who have a very pronounced careful recovery and spear, almost a pause from the ear-hop days. And this has helped several iron out that pause.

I still struggle with C) and controlling the energy. At the end of a swim, if I want to pick it up but think my arms don't have any more gas left in them, it's surprisingly there and effective. But I haven't gotten it into a nice efficiency box. Usually applying this late energy means my heart-rate climbs and I get out of breath. So that's what I'm working on now. How to use this jet pack for 30 minutes non-stop. (@Danny this is where it's easy for me to see this as a sprinting solution - I'm still searching for ways to make it a distance solution.)
OK, I'm glad I paid enough attention to guess where you were going with this. I say "guess" because I tried to vary the timing of my kick in the way I thought you were pointing, but I just didn't have the skill and control to do it effectively. Yet.

Still, I appreciate having a notion of what's to come (as evidenced by several experienced swimmers immediately recognising the timing shift phenomenon and the results, which are not obvious to me yet) dangling in my sights so that I can try to massage my form to push it to the next level. When I see the same thing happening, then I know I'm there!
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  #13  
Old 04-10-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
A couple of things that seem to help me a lot with recovery:

1. Palm up as the hand leaves the water is very important.

2. Feel a string tied to your elbow that pulls the elbow forward (not up) and relax all the arm and let the string pull do the work. This seems to keep the hand on wide tracks and just above the water while providing lots of relaxation.

3. And maybe most relevant to your "hand flick" observations: I try to feel as if my hand is already moving forward BEFORE it leaves the water. That seems to provide a nice circular motion to the recovery and avoid pauses. I'll have to shoot some video and see how it actually looks compared to how it feels, of course...
Palm up as it leaves the water as opposed to what wrong direction?

Still vertical, facing backwards?

Tending to face somewhat towards the midline during exit?

Tending to face somewhat towards the outward direction during exit?
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  #14  
Old 04-11-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Palm up as it leaves the water as opposed to what wrong direction?

Still vertical, facing backwards?

Tending to face somewhat towards the midline during exit?

Tending to face somewhat towards the outward direction during exit?
I used to have flick/rooster tail of water at the end of the stroke--I think it was because the palm was facing more backwards instead of palm up (toward the ceiling). The palm up feels very helpful in making sure my hand starts moving forward even before it leaves the water, for a smooth circular recovery.
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  #15  
Old 04-11-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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As far as I can remember Tom had a C shaped underwaterpull.
The optimal transition to recovery can be linked to the preceding underwaterpath probably.
So whats optimal for one person, might not be optimal for another.
If you have the standard slight S pullshape, this is probably your best finish style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdaP6DdrQIw
Flaring out, riding on the movement already there from the hip rotation into the wide above water swimg looks the most natural and smooth 3D path to me.

Straight, C shape or S shape, I think the most important is to switch your effort/focus from the rearward pushing hand to moving the shoulder and elbow forward/sideways right before the hand leaves the water and relax the hand and forearm a fraction earlier as usual.
.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-11-2016 at 02:55 PM.
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  #16  
Old 04-11-2016
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
As far as I can remember Tom had a C shaped underwaterpull.
Yep, I mean to post a new video soon to see what I look like now. Probably not much different...

I enjoy your analysis as always, ZT
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  #17  
Old 04-12-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I have to try that C shape pull myself to feel what its like.
Experimenting a bit with very wide marionette arm lately, so just keeping it wide underwater should do the trick.
I am guessing that the C shape pull is not optimally using this part of propuslion source.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr9Wg0Trubk
A lot of force can be generated by this action if the forearm and hand are locked to the upperarm and the water when pulling this paddle inward and back.
This probably is the basic idea of the diagonal phase in Sheila Taorminas pulling stuff.
The arms are a weak link in the whole stroke if you want to swim faster.
Often power in the stroke is using other bodypoarts to let them take over some of the active backward arm pulling to make it a passive movement where movement is taken over by other bodyparts.
THis can be by falling into the catch, bending or twisting the body a bit, pulling withn the shoulderblades etc.
The best can do this without comrpimising their streamline too much.

I was surprised to read you also like the always relaxed hand (also under water).
I think its great to pull your focus more internally to the main vessel and switch off that handpaddle focus that always tries to prop you up a little higher, even if you know you have to push backwatds and not down.
It feels like your vessel is sinking a touch lower but then fnds its place in the water and you can start that relaxed paddling your supported rolling treelog only with the arms on bodyroll.
Its much more relaxed than swimming with closed fists and gives the same (better in my view)results.
Its also great for the hand exit because the hand pivots down by waterpressure if its held relaxed at the end of the arm until palm is facing backward at the end of its range of relaxed motion (unless your wrist are super flexible)

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-12-2016 at 06:15 AM.
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  #18  
Old 04-12-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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ZT what do you think of this drill?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_r73AX1DkvE
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  #19  
Old 04-12-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
ZT what do you think of this drill?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_r73AX1DkvE
Suzanne, the swimmer seems to be doing very different things on the different sides. On his right side, he seems to focus on holding his elbow stationary until his forearm is vertical. On the left he moves the upper arm and the lower at the same time when going into a catch. Which of these two approaches is the real target, or is it something else entirely?
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  #20  
Old 04-12-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Suzanne, the swimmer seems to be doing very different things on the different sides. On his right side, he seems to focus on holding his elbow stationary until his forearm is vertical. On the left he moves the upper arm and the lower at the same time when going into a catch. Which of these two approaches is the real target, or is it something else entirely?
Right side is the target, he can't coordinate the left side! Good eyes
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Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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