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  #11  
Old 04-21-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
What interests me is what happens when you want to stroke at a faster rate.
In this example, one has to wait for ages untill the body has rotated back and the pull can start again.

What happens with the weight shift rotation drive when doing this drill at double the rotation frequency?
The pendulum effect is too slow for higher frequencies. Do we have to force the rotation with a more violent kick and hipsnap to keep the roll going at these higher frequencies?
If only Charles could find some time to show it.... (or try it yourself offcourse)
I'm kind of late (having a huge backlog of things to try and record), as I no longer really train in the pool. It was also the case back in 2011 when I recorded the clip. So that night, it would have been difficult for me to increase the body roll rate so to speak. I'm assuming that the whole execution would have became "shoulder driven", as I'd think that the first thing which falls apart in this context is the connection between hips and shoulders.

My works are aimed at being done at higher frequencies though. Main focal point when doing so being the hips the hips and again the hips, that is, the epicenter of the body roll. As soon as the epicenter leaves the middle of the body (hips), then frontal axis is more easily broken and I'd assume that weight shifts are harder to control and exploit.

You've put great words on this phenomenon where you clearly feel that some "energy" is being accumulated during the body roll (a bit like a spring being gradually tensed) then released in a "flush". And I can testify 100% that this is how faster pace swimming can be achieved, although it is certainly not the only way. These principles are the one I teach, that is, if you want to swim faster, this can only be achieve by swimming with your body, and less with your arms. I'm having great results as a coach using this method.

I should have finished documenting all these works by summer 2015, as I recently signed up with a new swimmer (model) who will allow me to demonstrate all that stuff very clearly. The guy is blooody blooody fast (sub 15:30 for 1500m). He also has the most beautiful free style distance stroke I've seen live in person.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 04-21-2014 at 02:26 PM.
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  #12  
Old 04-21-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Great Charles, it will be an interesting read.
The whole body integrated propulsion is the most fascinating thing in swimming technique.

Perhaps you can give me some tips about your isolated rotation drill.
I am stuck in the landbased movement pattern of moving the arms and hips in opposite directions. What happens with the arms standing straight and twisting the hips. The arms move in contrarotation compared to the hip rotation, helping the hip rotation a bit.
With your swimmer, the hands move in the same direction as the hip movement, extracting energy from the hip/torso/shoulder movement instead of helping the hip movement.(just like in full stroke).
You have seen this before off course. Must be like someone who kicks with the opposite timing or something like that.

How to break this instinctive move?
In whole stroke I can feel hip drive working, but I am pretty shure hands are also helping rotation a bit in full stroke.

So I can get a rotation going, I can breath quite comfortable at both sides using this rotation, but there is hardly any forward movement. Damn!
Must say its a great breathing drill.
Its quite relaxing to lie in the pool bubbling and rotation for a few minutes.
Going to full stroke after that has instant effect on your breathing ease.
Is all a bit more relaxed and breathing happens with a lower head.

My plan is to add some 2 beat leg action to help rotation and totally forget the arms .Rotate like there are no arms, be comfortable with that and then gradually awake the arms while keeping the roll going. Good idea?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-21-2014 at 05:47 PM.
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  #13  
Old 04-21-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Great Charles, it will be an interesting read.
The whole body integrated propulsion is the most fascinating thing in swimming technique.

Perhaps you can give me some tips about your isolated rotation drill.
I am stuck in the landbased movement pattern of moving the arms and hips in opposite directions. What happens with the arms standing straight and twisting the hips. The arms move in contrarotation compared to the hip rotation, helping the hip rotation a bit.... Good idea?
Well I truly wish I could help you, I'm so late. This will likely be video material though.

Yes there's a magical contrarotation component to making the whole execution perfectly round and smooth. But arrggrrr I can't teach that stuff remotely, I can barely teach it live. I'm just happy when people get it as I still have no way other than circling around the problem (working on scullings, SwimSmooth's #3, as shown on the Catch Masterclass DVD, as well as on some other stuff).

The thing with this drill and why I keep having interest toward it is that if you ask a competent swimmer to perform it, they usually get in within 5min max, and it gets perfectly done (or almost, call it more than acceptable). And a good reason why would be this contrarotation thing.

Problem and why it is soooo hard to teach is that people tend to exaggerate pretty much everything they do. So they switch too hard, sweep too hard with way too much amplitude (often ends up looking like mutant doggie paddle drill).

I mentioned the other about this analogy, your right foot vs your left foot pressing on the brake pedal. Swimmers have much better fine tuned gesture and feel for water it seems.

This drill will remain a mystery until I can competently teach it. It is the purest form of isolated rotation. It's easy and complex in the same time. But as for your point of interest, in this view here, you see the swimmer's left hand being on the opposite side. And you see its palm at some point, so trust this guy that he's caressing the water just enough to make the whole body roll nice and round.

How-e-ver... You also clearly see that the body has a significant momentum already when that happens. And that's because the hips very clearly move first. They create the twist, the swing. Body side falls and hands are acting lilke tropical fish's side fins, gracefully caressing the water just enough to make the whole thing nice and efficient.

Very hard to teach. We will still be discussing swimming in 100years from now, and still be scratching the surface. These guys have a job to do, which is moving forward the most economical way. They're equipped with an acute sense of touch, similar as having thousands of little sensors all around their body, giving them feed back on speed variation etc. They use their body in an optimal way, all available weight shifts, and transmit this having a solid hold on the water, thanks to magical hands. All that is hard to teach. But I like to think Isolated Rotation allows for isolated a few very basic of these components.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_rqKsqU_w

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 04-21-2014 at 10:41 PM.
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  #14  
Old 04-22-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post

What interests me is what happens when you want to stroke at a faster rate.
In this example, one has to wait for ages untill the body has rotated back and the pull can start again.

What happens with the weight shift rotation drive when doing this drill at double the rotation frequency?
The pendulum effect is too slow for higher frequencies. Do we have to force the rotation with a more violent kick and hipsnap to keep the roll going at these higher frequencies?
You need to add energy to the equation by limiting role using the core muscles, especially for women when the mass of the hips tends to stay in motion once it starts moving. Good obliques are needed.

This is exactly why in discussing performance, the pendulum analogy is not one of my favorites. You need to disrupt the natural frequency by using yoru core, arm width, and kick timing to arrest over rotation. But the benefit is that this energy can be returned to the water by maintaining more momentum forward.


Quote:
I think you will start seeing the body changing shape at different frequencies. Charles body is rotating like a single lump of mass, hips and shoulders all connected. If the body is morphed between helic shape, straight shape and helix shape again,
during the roll, like Thorpe is doing, it has an effect on the pendulum dynamics.
Sort of breaks up the mechanism.
Dont really understand how, but the body roll inertia must be decreased to roll faster. The whole mass is divided in slices that rotate at different speeds around the spine when the body is moving in and out helix shape during the roll in full stroke.
Sort of this effect:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVkdfJ9PkRQ
Yes this actually happens and has been studied in swimmers.it's a fraction beyond what I am comfortable trying to explain as I don't 100% understand the analysis but I understand the intuition of it.

I have been waiting for you to get to this point, prior to now it was not appropriate, but i think you'll be eager to read this article now.

See what you can make of it. I will await your report and thoughts on it. :)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19117572
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  #15  
Old 04-22-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I am curious how helixfairweathers stroke will develop regarding the woman hip and buoyancy thing. Woman have some advantages and possibly some disadvantages(outside the power disadvantage)

HMMM. 31,50 USD? Sorry too expensive.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-22-2014 at 06:13 AM.
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  #16  
Old 04-22-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I am curious how helixfairweathers stroke will develop regarding the woman hip and buoyancy thing. Woman have some advantages and possibly some disadvantages(outside the power disadvantage)

HMMM. 31,50 USD? Sorry too expensive.
That's OK. I paid ~ $300,000.00 after interest for access to Ovid via my graduate degree. ;-) However I agree, that's a big of a big price for a single article. I access them through work...I consider that an unpaid benefit of my job and would actually quite miss it if I lost access. I will see if I can send you a copy.

If we value the pursuit of knowledge, we must be free to follow wherever that search may lead us. The free mind is no barking dog to be tethered on a ten-foot chain.
-Adlai E. Stevenson Jr.

^^Costly access inhibits the pursuit of knowledge
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
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USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #17  
Old 04-22-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Thanks for the offer.
Let me guess. A lot of formulas, Fourier analyses of the movement of different bodyparts.
Main bodyparts move in first harmonic of roll, feet propulsion in 3th, shoulder xth harmonic? Must be something like that.
Conclusion? Moving all the bodyparts in the right sequence/rhythm is important?
Allways nice to know how we should move, and how much damage is done when timing is out :-)
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  #18  
Old 04-22-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Thanks for the offer.
Let me guess. A lot of formulas, Fourier analyses of the movement of different bodyparts.
Main bodyparts move in first harmonic of roll, feet propulsion in 3th, shoulder xth harmonic? Must be something like that.
Conclusion? Moving all the bodyparts in the right sequence/rhythm is important?
Allways nice to know how we should move, and how much damage is done when timing is out :-)
More or less. :) The kick harmonics were most interesting to me. The kicks in skilled swimmers move in a wave pattern that is slightly faster than the forward speed of the swimmer. Just like in stroking, the movements and force application MUST change as the forward velocity changes. Trying to do a turbo outboard motor kick like Phelps has when you swim 2:00/100 is a waste of energy. Imagine the frequency of a Phelp's kick when he chooses to swim a 25 in 25 seconds...I bet it's slow and pretty and not very splashy at all.
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Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #19  
Old 04-23-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by tomoy View Post
While we have some threads on hip-drive, I thought I'd add my own recent wondering. I'm finding is that it's hard to coordinate the speed at which the hips rotate with the speed of the switch, and the speed of the anchor. Some metaphors for example, which seem different than swimming, because everything happens at the same speed: fast.

In karate, the hip-drive rotates the trunk and shoulders, one arm-hand is forced forward, and another is pulled back in equal force. The two happen at basically the same speed and are balanced.

In tennis, the lead hand helps sight, the racket arm-hand is cocked behind. The force is generated by the hips, trunk, shoulders. The lead hand swings around and back at roughly the same speed as the racquet hand/arm move around and forward.

But in swimming, 1) the kick is a pretty quick flick 2) the hip drive is a little slower due to more mass but it's still pretty quick and 3) the switch of leading shoulders/hands follows at roughly the speed of the hips. The bummer in all of this (!) is anchoring hand. Ideally it seems like this needs/wants to be slower than all the other moving parts so that it doesn't slip.

Basically, I notice that if I focus on my hip drive, my anchoring hand pulls too fast (sorry for the dirty word) and slips. On the other hand, if I focus on tree-hugging a large mass of water, anchoring and moving past it, I seem to miss out on the power of the kick and hip-drive.

So that's my dilemma. I get the feeling there are gains to being able to have it all, but I seem to be trading one for the other. I also find that if I focus on the big slow anchor, my core muscle flex time is so long that it interferes with grabbing a quick bite of air. All timing issues. Curious if there's a right answer. Thanks!
Consider yourself lucky to even feel these things. Keep going down this path.

One of the hardest things in regard to timing between both hands has to be that you should normally be going very gentle, like you mentioned, to anchor whilst going very hard with the opposite hand. I call this tapping your belly rubbing your head sort of business. People generally don't realize this. So what people generally do, is virtually nothing with the hand that's about to anchor until total disengagement of the hand that just finished her most important work. This creates an offset between the switch, and the anchoring.

I call this 2-dimentional approach. You either wait, or pull. 3-dimentional is wait, set up, then pull. Wait time is shorter, set up time allows for gradual grip, then you're ready to shift weight. Now this may, or may not apply to the TI Stroke that I'm not sure. And I would be pleased to be corrected here by a TI coach. You guys teach getting into catch position much faster, and so this changes the dynamics possibly in comparison to what I'm describing.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 04-23-2014 at 02:00 AM.
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  #20  
Old 04-23-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I am curious how helixfairweathers stroke will develop regarding the woman hip and buoyancy thing. Woman have some advantages and possibly some disadvantages(outside the power disadvantage)
.

Yeah I have approached this with her before (gently). That's why I had suggested doing planks as an intro to core training.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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