Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-26-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

No one has yet explained why high elbows are a good thing. And no one has addressed my point that Terry Laughlin holds records at distance and doesn't (to my knowledge) use EVF.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-26-2010
flppr flppr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 449
flppr
Default

as a physical therapist, i cringe every time i see the evf vids. they don't realize they are shaving their rotator cuff with every stroke.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-26-2010
atreides atreides is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 293
atreides
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
No one has yet explained why high elbows are a good thing. And no one has addressed my point that Terry Laughlin holds records at distance and doesn't (to my knowledge) use EVF.
There are degrees of EVF. If you observe Grant Hacket's EVF the first thing you notice is the extreme movement forward of his shoulder on the catch. Then its the nearly 180 degree angle (measured from the opposite hand stretched horizontally from the body) from his shoulder to elbow and the 90 degree angle of his forearm to his elbow when he anchors. Phelps shoulder/ elbow alignment is not nearly as high (perhaps 195 degrees or a 15 degree drop from level). Terry is lower at 210 or so. I read somewhere that the idea of high elbow is predicated on how far in front of you that you begin to trap water. EVF forearms trap water at the time the when the anchoring arm begins its backward movement. The earlier (I think that's what the "E" in
EVF stands for) that you can place your forearm vertically with respect to your upper arm) the more water you trap. A dropped elbow, on the other hand, doesn't trap water until entire arm reaches vertical which means half of your stroke is already gone. Terry even says that only elite swimmers can extend their shoulders forward ala Hacket on the catch and doesn't advise that the rest of us do it. A full dropped elbow is perhaps a 60 or 70 degree move from level (a 90 degree drop would put your elbow at your navel). You can set a vertical anchor even with a drop of 45 degrees. So what constitutes a dropped elbow. I don't know the difinitive answer but I suspect it would be when either you can't set an anchor (straight arm pull) or that it (the anchor) evaporates too quickly (you fail to hold the 90 degree relationship between the forearm and the upper arm through the initial pull phase). Terry maintains that vertical anchor throughout his pull and so I think he's practicing EVF. He just doesn't throw his shoulder way out front to find the earliest possible point to anchor. He anchors comfortably at where his hand enters the water which is little bit forward of opposite elbow. I think EVF is all about where you anchor and maintaining that anchor throughout the stroke cylcle.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-26-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

Surely EVF means extending the leading arm parallel to the water surface and sweeping the arm back without, at the beginning at least, the upper arm shifting from being parallel to the water surface.

My money says learning to do that isn't worth the effort or the consequences.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-26-2010
dinah
 
Posts: n/a
Default

2 cents:

evf to me is where from lead arm glide, the swimmer early (E) on drops the forearm (F) to as vertical (V) as possible while the elbow stays in the same position. the humerus however rotates in to do this.

the term 'high elbows' is relative. this to me means that the elbow remains higher than the hand as the forearm drops in the catch position.

in response to the original qu about power in your arm stroke my thoughts would be that if i can firstly make my recovery arm relaxed, enter into the water and glide on track without tensing the arm ( but lengthening thru the lats and core), catching the water still without tensing forearm but keeping the elbow higher than my hand then as my body prepares for weight shift and rotation i can engage my lats and pull towards my midline as my core rotates and switches into the other side to glide. so the power comes from a combination of weight shift and rotation and lats. not my arm as such.

if i swim and dont have the elbow high in the catch (higher than hand that is), or if i drop the elbow i find that i cannot stabilise my shoulder and engage the lats during the pull.

one thing leads to another leads to another etc
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-26-2010
shuumai shuumai is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,077
shuumai
Send a message via Skype™ to shuumai
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Surely EVF means extending the leading arm parallel to the water surface and sweeping the arm back without, at the beginning at least, the upper arm shifting from being parallel to the water surface.

My money says learning to do that isn't worth the effort or the consequences.
Even if you start with a downward angle of the leading arm, you can focus on raising your elbow toward the surface in coordination with body roll while the forearm is relaxed and just following along. That will put the elbow high and the forearm vertical. (Maybe a little further back than for those who can just contort into position easier.) Once in position, apply pressure with emphasis on the wrist. Then raise the elbow out of the water to recover. Then lead the recovery with the elbow. It's all about elbow-lead it seems. I can do it with my poor flexibility. Doing so also keeps my catch lighter.

The reason I started playing with that technique is that I felt too much early tension in the left catch and I figured that if I stayed in the catch position too long, it would actually drag through the water momentarily. Pulling the elbow up speeds up the catch while reducing tension...it seems.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-26-2010
jan ameling jan ameling is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 17
jan ameling
Default

haschu33 that's really a good read. It has been very helpful to me. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-26-2010
shuumai shuumai is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,077
shuumai
Send a message via Skype™ to shuumai
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flppr View Post
as a physical therapist, i cringe every time i see the evf vids. they don't realize they are shaving their rotator cuff with every stroke.
Please evaluate: My "EVF" seems to be at shoulder level. (Perhaps it's an LVF or DVF--"L" for late or "D "for delayed.) For example, if I were to stand and rest my arm on a shelf, the elbow would point out to the side at a comfortable level and the forearm and fingers would point forward. (Of course it isn't exactly like that or I doubt it would be effective.) At that point I would apply pressure. Safe?

(Interestingly, I've been learning to apply less force and use smaller movements in general.)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-26-2010
shuumai shuumai is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 1,077
shuumai
Send a message via Skype™ to shuumai
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jan ameling View Post
haschu33 that's really a good read. It has been very helpful to me. Thanks!
I agree that it was a good read. Referring to http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...1&postcount=20

There is a video in which Natalie Coughlin says, "...avoid sudden accelerations while in the water. If you do so you will have slippage in the water and you'll lose pull." Sounds like the same idea as anchoring. In fact, she mentions anchoring and using your body to move past the anchor in another video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iA6fyGmQf8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjWlXlJ7oe4
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-26-2010
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London, UK
Posts: 804
Lawrence
Default

Am I alone in thinking that focussing on the catch (and by that I mean directing one's attention to what the lead arm and hand are doing in order to secure a good catch) is a mistake?

I tried that in the past and the result was slippage, with the lead hand ripping through the water and me gaining little propulsion. It also gave me shoulder pain.

I think the answer is to focus on the other hand and let the catch take care of itself. This works very well for me.

If it sounds odd, consider: most of the things one's body does during TI freestyle are not the focal point of one's attention. They are instead, as John Lennon might have said, things that happen while we're busy focussing on other things.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.