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  #1  
Old 04-15-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Default Who's the best model for rock-steady timing?

For rock-steady timing (not race-tuned) who would be the best model in your opinion? (and one that can be studied in a YouTube video)

I've focused on Shinji's videos but is his timing basic rock-steady in these, or it is it more for the purpose of demonstrating stroke elements i.e with the timing exaggerated and stretched at certain points in order to create an emphasis and make a visual point?
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  #2  
Old 04-16-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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What do you mean by rock steady? Do you mean even tempo?

What do you mean by race tuned? Do you mean faster tempo?

I'm unclear on what you are asking about or what your doubts are re: Shinji videos. What are you looking for ?
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  #3  
Old 04-16-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
What do you mean by rock steady? Do you mean even tempo?
It's really hard to put into words the difference between a rock-steady beat and the lifeless beat of a drum machine. Both are regular, both are precise - as far as measurment goes anyway - but .. I'm lost for words, you just KNOW the difference when you hear the two, you can FEEL it, and I can feel the same thing in the performance of sportspeople. That doesn't help you much though I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
What do you mean by race tuned? Do you mean faster tempo?
This is tough! It's maybe about something that could be called "attack".

Music that is "laid-back" (JJ Cale, Lou Read) the accent is fractionally behind the beat all the time (even though the beat is actually held). The space created gives the feel of being laid-back or conversely of speeding ahead when the reverse happens.

So I conceive of the Shinji videos as being laid-back, and race-tuned as being the opposite. Rock-steady is in between. Which doesn't mean metronomic - or I don't think it does. Sly and Robbie are rock-steady and a fabulous bassist drummer combo. They were the ones MAINTAINING the beat for others to choose to be laid-back or race-tuned.


In swimming terms, I was thinking for instance that where/how the kick begins and ends in relation to the hands hitting the water might vary between different styles of / approaches to swimming i.e race/sprint over short distances (where power dominates) and marathon ....
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #4  
Old 04-16-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
It's really hard to put into words the difference between a rock-steady beat and the lifeless beat of a drum machine. Both are regular, both are precise - as far as measurment goes anyway - but .. I'm lost for words, you just KNOW the difference when you hear the two, you can FEEL it, and I can feel the same thing in the performance of sportspeople. That doesn't help you much though I guess.



This is tough! It's maybe about something that could be called "attack".

Music that is "laid-back" (JJ Cale, Lou Read) the accent is fractionally behind the beat all the time (even though the beat is actually held). The space created gives the feel of being laid-back or conversely of speeding ahead when the reverse happens.

So I conceive of the Shinji videos as being laid-back, and race-tuned as being the opposite. Rock-steady is in between. Which doesn't mean metronomic - or I don't think it does. Sly and Robbie are rock-steady and a fabulous bassist drummer combo. They were the ones MAINTAINING the beat for others to choose to be laid-back or race-tuned.


In swimming terms, I was thinking for instance that where/how the kick begins and ends in relation to the hands hitting the water might vary between different styles of / approaches to swimming i.e race/sprint over short distances (where power dominates) and marathon ....
That makes more sense. Dave Cameron is good at coaching this. Most TI swimmers (self included) are laid back in your terms...the kick is relatively late to the roll. One of my favorite focal points to pick up my speed and "attack" feeling while keeping my stroke intact is to start my kcik earlier. It increases the tempo a bit but also shortens the distance in time between kick and spear, kick & catch, kick & next stroke, etc.

I can't really help you with any videos though but I think I understand what you're saying. It's rate related though, for sure at least for me. Initiating a kick earlier in my timing naturally increases my tempo. To maintain a slower tempo with an earlier kick requires more pause up front which may or may not be a good idea depending on the velocity.
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  #5  
Old 04-17-2014
jafaremraf jafaremraf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Most TI swimmers (self included) are laid back in your terms...the kick is relatively late to the roll. One of my favorite focal points to pick up my speed and "attack" feeling while keeping my stroke intact is to start my kcik earlier. It increases the tempo a bit but also shortens the distance in time between kick and spear, kick & catch, kick & next stroke, etc.
Sorry to hijack your thread Talvi, but this point of Suzanne's interest me. Does the kick not initiate the roll? Is the focus to kick when the recovery arm is poised to spear? Or is the focus to time the recovery arm when ready to kick. It's a subtle difference in my mind but a simple change of focus can help a lot.
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Old 04-17-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
That makes more sense. Dave Cameron is good at coaching this. Most TI swimmers (self included) are laid back in your terms...the kick is relatively late to the roll. One of my favorite focal points to pick up my speed and "attack" feeling while keeping my stroke intact is to start my kcik earlier. It increases the tempo a bit but also shortens the distance in time between kick and spear, kick & catch, kick & next stroke, etc.

I can't really help you with any videos though but I think I understand what you're saying. It's rate related though, for sure at least for me. Initiating a kick earlier in my timing naturally increases my tempo. To maintain a slower tempo with an earlier kick requires more pause up front which may or may not be a good idea depending on the velocity.
The follow up question Suzanne is around what point/action in the stroke do you feel your "earliness"/"lateness" revolving? Of course it's all linked together but if you just think of the kick for instance and the other primary points in the whole stroke what does the kick timing's earliness/lateness relate to, or in other words, if you move smoothly between "early" and "late" then what does the mid-point in that relate to in the rest of your stroke?

I "know" this stuff is unique to each individual and to what they're trying to achieve, but still it's helpful to see/hear what practice/experience is like for others, however dissimilar they might be. For instance, that bobbing flating moment you taught me about - truly priceless - and I'd never have noticed it, or not for a very long time, if you hadn't mentioned it as something you feel.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #7  
Old 04-17-2014
dprevish dprevish is offline
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I have to say that the kick timing debate has been long going on this forum and there is much out there to research.
I have not really found that there is substantial advice to promote early or late more over the other as there are examples out there of people that swim with a late kick and early, all very competitive in their swim style.
My most recent experience seems to support that too early a kick w/out the rotation already in sequence is a fantastic waste of energy.
Most of the slow mo studies I've done across the net feature the kick snapping out just after the spearing hand enters the water in front of the ear.
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Old 04-17-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dprevish View Post
..My most recent experience seems to support that too early a kick w/out the rotation already in sequence is a fantastic waste of energy.
Most of the slow mo studies I've done across the net feature the kick snapping out just after the spearing hand enters the water in front of the ear.
I keep kicking the lane divider, which is a hint of some kind! Don't know what's leading me to kick early though.

I'd noticed Shinji's kick-snap coinciding with the catch. This happens at the same time as the spear entry so ties in with your obs, but your timing link to the spear is way more precise so much more useful. Thanks.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #9  
Old 04-18-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
The follow up question Suzanne is around what point/action in the stroke do you feel your "earliness"/"lateness" revolving? Of course it's all linked together but if you just think of the kick for instance and the other primary points in the whole stroke what does the kick timing's earliness/lateness relate to, or in other words, if you move smoothly between "early" and "late" then what does the mid-point in that relate to in the rest of your stroke?

I "know" this stuff is unique to each individual and to what they're trying to achieve, but still it's helpful to see/hear what practice/experience is like for others, however dissimilar they might be. For instance, that bobbing flating moment you taught me about - truly priceless - and I'd never have noticed it, or not for a very long time, if you hadn't mentioned it as something you feel.

I don't think it's so much a debate as playing with different timings at different tempos & paces to see what it feels like to you. My kick timing changes with my overall speed...earlier kick helps intiiate a faster roll. Perhaps this has to do with overcoming and "getting ahead" of my resonant roll frequency.

https://totalimmersion.wistia.com/medias/pgln8ayuml

Starting at about 1:10 into this video you can see me swimming at a very slow tempo, with lots of streamlining yet still some nice forward movement. My kick is very "late" here i that my hips have already started rolling and I am spearing. The kick "accentuates" the end of the spear.

But at faster tempos my kick timing is different. It has to be...if I initiate kick earlier in this particular clip, it would increase my rate. But I am focusing on something very deliberate here I believe with the width of my hands and any faster rate would distract from my ability to hold focus on my thought at the time.

SO agility is important...the ability to change and vary the relative timing of different parts of the stroke with one another to suit the situation.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #10  
Old 04-18-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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I hear you. And thanks for all of that. It's really interesting and the clip too, even though it's hard for me to see/imagine the different timing. Of late, a focus of mine has been on opening the groin / keeping the leg up at the surface, so that I guess means a late kick? I also end up kicking the rope at times but that would mean and early kick or too much rotation maybe?

In my case the issue is trying to get my ducks in a row first and then spacing them out to suit later, if there is a later. There are so many things involved, head, neck, back, hands, elbows, shoulders, hips, feet, knees thighs, groin, stomach, flanks, not to mention the combinations and timings, and even when working on song all of them are variable so there is an infinity available to flounder about it. I'm trying to reduce this down and fix dependable points of reference to build around, explore from, and return to.

Yesterday I used the TT for the first time. It was so fascinating I found that I was doing 3 stroke breathing, at least. I didn't want to come up for air. At one point I caught myself as I was about to take a breath underwater!!! I had sort of forgotten I was underwater. That was a hit of a shock I can tell you :D A nice thing was finding there little significant difference in overall timing of my breathing stroke to my non-breathing stroke - except when I was being "lazy". I discovered that I use the breathing side from time to time to take a bit of a break.

BTW I found that 1.5 - 1.6 were the tempos I swim between.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 04-18-2014 at 08:23 AM.
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