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  #1  
Old 06-12-2012
swimust swimust is offline
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swimust
Default The activation Japanese (secret) code is: "Chest Muscles"

Ok then... another "wolf" cry by me?.. do I talk nonsense again?..
Reminding you that I am trying to break "the Shinji code" with no coach, no workshop, no Japanese language knowledge... just from youtube, shinji comments, and my endless "try and error" efforts...
and Shinji sometimes gets the translation wrong like in the "leg flick" case when he called it "leg snap" (Terry told us about that), so please have mercy and be patient with me :)

SO... Today at the pool... another day of mystery solving.. how does Shinji gets his amazing vertical body position when he finishes the stroke? how does he recovers the arm with a "vertical" upper arm position?... for 2 years I am trying to find answers.
SO... I was real mad mental this morning, a mood thing.. and my "crazy" mood helped and did the business! think outside of the box they say!........

SO I started playing with chest stretches throughout the various parts of the stroke..
There was my answer to all my questions! take it or leave this wolf cry. its your decision..

Last 2 hints and a one extra remark:
hint 1: the stretches are not lateral !!!
hint 2: there are 2 chest stretches invloved in 2 different areas!
ONE remark: this is NOT the classic TI. Terry is NOT doing that !!! Terry brings his upper arm from the side of the deltoid when he enters the water, Shinji brings his upper arm from above the deltoid when he enters the water !!
---------------------------------
End of another wolf cry. reading is optional, its up to you...
Its still very fresh in my mind... only 6 hours went by since this AMAZING discovery. I am still overwhelmed to be honest. Thanks for your patience if you read all this :)

SO, am I just playing with your heads, or am I right for a change?....
I am swimming at last.. yesssssssssssss (and it was fast with no physical conditioning, believe me.. or not)

P.S. - This is the craziest post I ever posted here without a doubt. "crazy" and amazing as Shinji looks in the water. I am happy today!

Last edited by swimust : 06-12-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 06-12-2012
swimust swimust is offline
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I must add something to ease my pain of all the lost time.
No wonder I could not find it until now, and even then it was just an accidental discovery. There were 2 very good reasons which prevented me from seeing the chest stretches:
1) It is NOT done in TI classic, so no one talked about it.
2) You can NOT see it in video !! The chest muscles DO NOT JUMP out of the body frame. You just can not see that while watching the videos.
The only visual hint is hardly seeing Shinji's nipple going backwards at the end of the stroke. We only see the results which are the vertical body position and the 100% controlled recoveries. I can now hold my arm static and not moving in the middle of my recovery and then move it on as if I never stopped it! Total control during recovery.
------------------------------------------

4 hours later after posting this comment: (I do not want to add a new comment and hijack the forum)
Its so clear and vivid now! The only way to achieve these vertical positions of the shoulders is by using the chest area below the shoulder and create a local rotation (not a full log/torso rotation). I am watching Shinji swim and its so clear and logical now. Unbelievable how I missed it until now. I just could not see it.

Last edited by swimust : 06-12-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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  #3  
Old 06-13-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi swimust

I think your plan to swim like Shinji is a good one but, although I may be mistaken and no doubt haven't spent as long studying the finer points of his technique as you have, I think you are seeing fine points of technique that don't really exist.

Inevitably, if you roll the shoulders the pectoral muscles will stretch and it is quite clear to me that in order to reach the excellent high elbow position that Shinji reaches on his recovery (slightly closer to the vertical on the right side than the left, I think), his scapula moves somewhat in the direction of the spine, which means that his pectoral muscles will stretch. It seems to me that his shoulders rotate more than his hips do but I would not like to get into a discussion of whether this classifies it a a shoulder-driven or hip driven stroke. I think the ideal TI stroke is meant to be a body-driven stroke, with all the parts beautifully integrated.

I have no doubt that there is software available that could analyse the video frame by frame and perhaps arrive at a solution but a scientific description of the movements is not always the best teaching tool.

Of course even if your insight is illusory, if it helps you swim better, smoother and even faster, it is worthwhile.
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Old 06-13-2012
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Hi swimust

I think your plan to swim like Shinji is a good one but, although I may be mistaken and no doubt haven't spent as long studying the finer points of his technique as you have, I think you are seeing fine points of technique that don't really exist.

Inevitably, if you roll the shoulders the pectoral muscles will stretch and it is quite clear to me that in order to reach the excellent high elbow position that Shinji reaches on his recovery (slightly closer to the vertical on the right side than the left, I think), his scapula moves somewhat in the direction of the spine, which means that his pectoral muscles will stretch. It seems to me that his shoulders rotate more than his hips do but I would not like to get into a discussion of whether this classifies it a a shoulder-driven or hip driven stroke. I think the ideal TI stroke is meant to be a body-driven stroke, with all the parts beautifully integrated.

I have no doubt that there is software available that could analyse the video frame by frame and perhaps arrive at a solution but a scientific description of the movements is not always the best teaching tool.

Of course even if your insight is illusory, if it helps you swim better, smoother and even faster, it is worthwhile.
Hi, :)
First, thanks for the reply and you of course have very good points, BUT... I will answer your points one by one!:

1) My intention and goal is NOT to look as good as Shinji. My intention is just to swim his style, just like other Japanese swimmers do. They also do not look as good as him. I "just want to swim"... Of course that I have ego, but honest, I just want to be able to go to the pool and swim like other Japanese swimmers. I like this style, but I am not in love with the image of me "looking like Shinji". I just want to swim, I.E.- like the 62 years Japanese coach who can do 7 SPL on 25M.

2) You said: "..It seems to me that his shoulders rotate more than his hips do but I would not like to get into a discussion of whether this classifies it a a shoulder-driven or hip driven stroke..."
My reply to this quote is:
Shinji already said that he does a "shoulder twist". He called it once "body rotation" and he said that it comes after hip roll which is separated! So, there are two actions: one is 'hip roll', second is the 'shoulder twist'. These are FACTS that Shinji told us on this forum.
There is a real difference between the classic TI "roll as a log" and the Shinji "two actions" roll.
Now, here is a very daring comment from me. :) here it comes:
The stroke is a Pectoralis muscles driven stroke !!! This is the "trigger". The Pectoralis is the muscle that creates the Shoulder twist !!
Ok, I will spell it out (no more hints): Stretching the Pectoralis forward when entering the arm in water enables vertical shoulder (with scapula) position !!
The Pectoralis allows this to happen. Nothing else can do that. I tried...
Same thing happens when pulling! I stretched the Pectoralis of the pulling side backwards and guess what?!.. I got a vertical shoulder ready for recovery !!

In my eyes the reality is this:
The Shinji style has not penetrated yet the Western world, maybe because of a language barrier. So, when a mad obssessed person(me) works hard to find how its done, then its still "new grounds". It was not talked about yet. I am a pioneer... :) :)
I watched yesterday the videos after my discovery and I could only see the logic of the Pectoralis. There is no other way. Its not about a special athletic ability. There is a logic and a reason. The other Japanese swimmers are also "not Shinji". They are different persons but they still swim his style.

Now I just hope that tomorow when I am at the pool it wont fade away...
Too tired today and taking rest. Yesterday I swam twice with only 9 hours rest gap in between, and it effected me today. I said 'swam' but add to it the brain storming, the mental and phisycal effort of being out of my comfort zone, etc,etc.. "lets hope"..

P.S. - I know that what I say sounds crazy (its not the classic TI), but I swear I mean it and I believe in it. If I am wrong then so be it, but I am not teasing.

Last edited by swimust : 06-13-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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  #5  
Old 06-13-2012
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Hi swimust

...it is quite clear to me that in order to reach the excellent high elbow position that Shinji reaches on his recovery (slightly closer to the vertical on the right side than the left, I think), his scapula moves somewhat in the direction of the spine, which means that his pectoral muscles will stretch...
Opss.... I missed that part which shows that you are thinking about lateral stretch of the pectoral muscles.
Thats not what I said on my first post. My First hint in my first post said: "Its NOT a lateral stretch" !!
In my last reply I spilled the beans: Its forward and backwards stretch !!
How did I and so many others missed that? Am I going crazy?.... :) :)
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Old 06-13-2012
Grant Grant is offline
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Hi Swimust
this is not to take away from your points just to add another factor to the Shinji swim. As mentioned sometime earlier his legs are shorter in proportion to the rest of his body than alot of people. At a recent swim meet I saw a swimmer that was just gliding thru the water in a sprint race. It immeadiately brought to mind shinji. I paid attention to him when he got out and he had relatively short legs. It also turned out he was of Japanese heritage. I talked with him later and asked how he had learned to swim like that. He said he just swam like the rest of his club.
From this I concluded that body proportions are a major factor but of coarse not the only factor on achieving that smooth efficient stroke.
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Old 06-13-2012
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
From this I concluded that body proportions are a major factor but of coarse not the only factor on achieving that smooth efficient stroke.
Terry has observed, and noted here, that folks of Asian descent seem to have an easier time achieving balance than some others, and therein may lie the key to the "Shinji style."

At the pool I frequent there is young lifeguard of Japanese ancestry. Short legs, squat frame. Her hips pop to the surface life a cork, helping her pull off a very effective butterfly stroke.
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Old 06-13-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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As far as I know I have no Asian ancestry but I have legs that are short in relation to my body. This does not help me to swim like Shinji, although I do try. Of course I am also a lot older than Shinji

With regard to the pectoralis major, it seems to me that any stretch of this muscle must originate in another muscle or muscle group. If you put your hands on your chest and shrug your shoulders you will feel the pectoralis major move but it is not the muscle that is doing the shrugging. similarly if you move your shoulder backwards you will feel the pectoralis major move but it isn't moving your shoulders it is moving with your shoulders.

Perhaps Suzanne, who knows a lot more about anatomy than I do, would care to elucidate. Somewhere not far away I have a copy of Swimming Anatomy and perhaps after I have examined it I will comment again.
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Old 06-14-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
As far as I know I have no Asian ancestry but I have legs that are short in relation to my body. This does not help me to swim like Shinji, although I do try. Of course I am also a lot older than Shinji

With regard to the pectoralis major, it seems to me that any stretch of this muscle must originate in another muscle or muscle group. If you put your hands on your chest and shrug your shoulders you will feel the pectoralis major move but it is not the muscle that is doing the shrugging. similarly if you move your shoulder backwards you will feel the pectoralis major move but it isn't moving your shoulders it is moving with your shoulders.

Perhaps Suzanne, who knows a lot more about anatomy than I do, would care to elucidate. Somewhere not far away I have a copy of Swimming Anatomy and perhaps after I have examined it I will comment again.
The pec minor partcipates in internal rotation of the arm during the catch. Pec Major is not so much engaged. When I am swimming my fastest, smoothest 100s, one of my focal points is spearing forward and allowing pressure to build into my hand as the pec stretches. It may be a chicken and egg as perhaps I'm feeling the pec stretch because i'm engaging it in a brisker catch. It's a cool feeling and I also find it in the butterfly.

But I won't dignify the original hypothesis of this thread by suggesting in any way whatsoever that the pec contributes to proper recovery. It's been turned off long before then.
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  #10  
Old 06-14-2012
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quite amazing what you can chew on in your mind when swimming. I never thought of my pectoralis, except since I started with Yoga a while ago and noticed that my shoulders have only little flexibility and my pecs seem to be chronically shortened, right arm worse than left.

A few points:

- I don't regard the angle of the upper arm as being a core part of the 'TI stroke'. Having it vertical or not is not the point IMHO, and it depends mainly on shoulder flexibility. Trying to recover with an upright upper arm might easily bring you in an over-rotated position so I don't see the benefit of trying to achieve that. And when the pectoralis stretch, call it lateral or not - there are not really two ways the pecs can stretch.

- I agree with Doc Sue that the pecs should not be engaged at all in the recovery. When I stretch my arm while spearing I feel it more in the deltoids and the back of my shoulder than the pecs. In fact I never think of my pecs while swimming and I am not sure why I should do so. I think the pec minor can pull the shoulder down or prevent it from sliding upwards, but inward rotation is one of the functions of the pectoralis major?

- In another thread it was mentioned - I think Ladyfish was the name - that Shinji now rotates more with his shoulders than the hips and that the kick is a little later when the spearing hand has entered the water already. I tried both. Kicking a little later was a little hard to incorporate but feels very harmonious and 'natural'. Rotating more with the shoulders is something that I skipped for the time being since it takes quite some effort to incorporate that. Anyway any shoulder rotation must come from the core muscles and not from the pectoralis. I would like to have more 'official' information on that one before I try it. Like how much, the background, it's benefits and so on. Maybe someone can shed some light on this subject, like Doc?

- And for swimust: I don't know if you are crazy or not, your posts seem to be slightly crazy, but I guess we all are a little crazy, aren't we? Hopefully, I think it is difficult to be sane if you aren't crazy at times. Just look at Doc Sue, you cannot say that she isn't slightly crazy ;-). But that's what makes her posts enjoyable, right?
If picking those strange details and turning them into main points helps your swimming, swimust, it is of course good for you to do. Otherwise and in general it is a lot wiser to first check if those details really form a core part of the 'TI stroke' or are just some details that happen unwittingly in this or that way and are just a contribution of different body shapes, anatomies and personalities.


Hang on in there...
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