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  #21  
Old 11-07-2015
fooboo fooboo is offline
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Just like ZT said. Checked in the pool this morning.
As Bill Boomer shows on the video, I do swim, but backstroke.
Extended arm, pendulum, extreme rotation, sliding and getting
an anchor... Almost no energy used. Balance is needed, for sure.

I tried similar for crawl. Didn't work with relaxed forearm in
recovery part. Setting extended sliding arm in place, leaning
on an armpit and sealing head to the shoulder, I just cannot roll
to 90 degrees. Have to let shoulder take lower position, but I
loose streamline doing that.

Boomer says recovery should be connected to the hip. Get it.
Like "throw left, throw right, throw left..." Swimmer throws
his extended arm with whole body. I think K. Ledecky did it on
the last championship.
This looks like fundamental change. No opinions?
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  #22  
Old 11-07-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
A pretty fluid jellyfish robot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSTJVnf5nyA
In my view there is no suction without pressure in normal aquatic movement. Its just looking at one side of the coin instead of the other.
Is a propellor sucking water in or pushing water back?
If you look at the pictures of pressure when the eel is swimming, you see large areas of negative pressure around the eel, but only a small area of positive pressure in front of his head. So the trick may be to maximize the area of low pressure and minimize the area of high pressure. In one sense, that is obvious. Imagine a large bowl moving through the water. If the concave part of the bowl is moving forward, it will catch the oncoming water, which can't escape. The result is a large area of positive pressure in the bowl. The negative pressure at the back will be small, because it is easier for water to rush in and relieve this pressure difference. The result is a lot of water resistance. On the other hand, if you turn the bowl around so that the concave part is facing backwards, the water resistance goes way down. This is because the water with a positive pressure and slide away much more easily than the water with negative pressure on the other side. So these observations all seem to be consistent with what we expect in terms of water resistance.
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  #23  
Old 11-07-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Hey, thats an intersting thought Danny.
On dryland a high prerssure on a small surface has the same effect as a low pressure on a big surface to make the same force, but in the water it doesnt work that way.
In the water its best to use a big surface with a low pressure instead of a small surface with a high pressure.
The last would only stirr the water.
Like paddling with the right or the wrong side (the round part wher your hands usually are) of your paddle in the canoe.

Now if an animal can produce a low pressure region with a big surface at one side, but is only capable of making a high pressure region with a small surface at the other side?
Then his suction side is more efficient than his positive pressure side.
And we arrive at the conclusion that suction is more effective than pressing.
Its not in the suction itself, but in the paddle shape/surface
Now think of ways how humans can make the suction surface bigger than the pressing surface....

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-07-2015 at 04:47 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-07-2015
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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A couple thoughts.

Eel swimming and negative pressure spots:
As I understand, there are two general methods to coaching underwater dolphin kicking. One says keep the hands-to-ribs stationary and start the action at the hips. The idea being any body motion would just increase frontal area and therefore drag. The other says keep the hands-to-head stationary and start the action at the chest. I have only heard this taught as a way to use more fatigue resistant posture muscles to power the legs.

I have always had much better success using the second method. And it looks, to my eyes, that most elites move the chest. Maybe, the low pressure concept explains why added drag of moving the chest doesn't slow us down.

I always go back to, this gives us reason to experiment and find what works for us.

Side note: I have been working with my masters swimmers on exaggerated dolphin kicks for about a month now. I am thinking more about developing spinal mobility for general health first, and maybe some control and ability will show up in their swimming later. We lose this mobility as we age. I am reminded daily how incredibly patient we have to be because the torso changes very slowly. So know that, as we explore this, we have to give our bodies a lot of time to develop the mobility to even begin to test the effects.


High Arm Focus -
Several years ago, at least a decade or more, maybe at the very beginning of TI, Terry started talking about the INTENTION of driving the recovering arm forward. I teach this as "intention can activate a better choice of muscles than thinking realistically can." In other words, I don't think we (and Boomer) are trying to say that the physics of the arm swing will literally pull you down the pool. As many of the earlier posts on this thread have said, if you lay on the water in torpedo and just recover the arm, you won't move forward. I believe that THINKING that the recovery arm is pulling you down the pool changes the pattern of muscle activation in the pulling/anchoring arm in a way that allows better traction and power with less effort.

Finally, I believe that the high arm focus is independent of the straight/bent arm in recovery. I find it easier to LEARN the connection and feeling with a straight arm. But once you get the feeling, you can bend the arm into a traditional TI recovery and maintain the feeling if you prefer.
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  #25  
Old 11-07-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I agree completely with this.
These mental images dont really equal reality, but they do change which muscles are recruted and in which sequence.
Its like this mental image lets us remember how a certain movement feels on dryland and we can draw from our vast movement memory to incorperate some of that memorised movement in our swim movement.
Its also a sort of mental distraction from the pulling arm.
When you focus on the recovering part be it straigh ot bended, the pull slows down a bit at the same time probably and when the recovery is more or less finished attention can shift to the pull again which is right on time.
Focussing exclusely on the recovery distracts so much that the catch isnt set up properly, but thats a different story.

The difficulty with the straight arm is, that it requires an extra mental effort to bend the elbow again.
With the high elbow this position is still fresh in muscle memory after arm entry to apply again.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-07-2015 at 05:29 PM.
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  #26  
Old 11-07-2015
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachEricDeSanto View Post

High Arm Focus -
Several years ago, at least a decade or more, maybe at the very beginning of TI, Terry started talking about the INTENTION of driving the recovering arm forward. I teach this as "intention can activate a better choice of muscles than thinking realistically can." In other words, I don't think we (and Boomer) are trying to say that the physics of the arm swing will literally pull you down the pool. As many of the earlier posts on this thread have said, if you lay on the water in torpedo and just recover the arm, you won't move forward. I believe that THINKING that the recovery arm is pulling you down the pool changes the pattern of muscle activation in the pulling/anchoring arm in a way that allows better traction and power with less effort.

Finally, I believe that the high arm focus is independent of the straight/bent arm in recovery. I find it easier to LEARN the connection and feeling with a straight arm. But once you get the feeling, you can bend the arm into a traditional TI recovery and maintain the feeling if you prefer.
Hi Eric,

I do and have done the same with my squad, start with more straight arm, to get the arm on the correct plane and to carry momentum of recovery forward (no decelerating hitch at the hip) - then begin to relax forearm maintaining high elbow with humerus on same plane as scapular arc of the back.

Using hip/pelvis as the generator of momentum is not subjective, but reality. Coach Boomer does note momentum pulling swimmer down the pool. I do suggest you get his series, great for all coaches. The last section on "Restart Errors" where swimmer demos, pull first impulse, kick first impulse - starting outside in, you can clearly see lost momentum, much like the water seems thicker. Followed by demo of starting impulse from high side recovery arm being thrown from the hip (not the shoulder), swimming from inside out, is eye opening indeed. Momentum is a very powerful force. The teaser video doesn't put it in complete context and we shouldn't validate or dismiss based on our current filters.

TI and Coach Boomer are both advocating hip/core driven stroke, swimming from inside out and not legs and arms inward, reducing workload (or effort) = speed; the main difference is connecting hip (pelvis) earlier at beginning of recovery not later at full forward swing. Whether momentum (from recovery) is thrown from the hip or driven from the hip, it's still momentum and energy moving forward and not back.

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 11-07-2015 at 06:27 PM.
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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In my view this girl is a good forward arm thrower.
Inside out or outside in?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRO2o8x_7IU
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  #28  
Old 11-07-2015
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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In my view, Jeanette's impulses are both on pull and kick, not recovery; outside in.

Stuart
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  #29  
Old 11-07-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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How to establish your aquatic signature? And what are the best swimstrokes for different balance positions?
All I know I am a horizontal floater without any kick in superman.Looking down or 45 degrees forward doesnt matter.
Short legs, longish arms.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-07-2015 at 07:59 PM.
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  #30  
Old 11-07-2015
Streak Streak is offline
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And here is another swimmer practicing some Boomer FQ principles.
11 strokes per length? I'm sure his kick has a lot to do with that.
High recovery with relatively flat entry.
Not quite catch up timing.
I like it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnvRFbWaX0U
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