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  #21  
Old 02-25-2014
CoachToby CoachToby is offline
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Personally I do think the term "overglider" is used by SS as a derogative term to deride TI. As Suzanne points out, this rift between the two camps may have something to do with blog posts by Ian a few years ago - I vaugely remeber reading a lengthy discussion between Ian and a few others (one or more may have been from the SS camp) and it got pretty heated. Ian was never one to pussey foot around when it came to his opinion on swimming.

Like jafaremraf says, TI swimming requires a dramatic shift in approach which for most swimmers genrerally means less swimming initially. For many this is the biggest hurdle. To do it well takes an extraordinary amount of mental focus and disipline, but when you get it the results speak for themselves. But hey, some just like to smash it, hence a market for SS.

Last edited by CoachToby : 02-25-2014 at 07:52 AM.
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  #22  
Old 02-25-2014
CoachTraceyBaumann CoachTraceyBaumann is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
thanks for such an insightful post!
Totally agree Suzanne. :-)
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  #23  
Old 02-25-2014
CoachTraceyBaumann CoachTraceyBaumann is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachToby View Post
Personally I do think the term "overglider" is used by SS as a derogative term to deride TI. As Suzanne points out, this rift between the two camps may have something to do with blog posts by Ian a few years ago - I vaugely remeber reading a lengthy discussion between Ian and a few others (one or more may have been from the SS camp) and it got pretty heated. Ian was never one to pussey foot around when it came to his opinion on swimming.

Like jafaremraf says, TI swimming requires a dramatic shift in approach which for most swimmers genrerally means less swimming initially. For many this is the biggest hurdle. To do it well takes an extraordinary amount of mental focus and disipline, but when you get it the results speak for themselves. But hey, some just like to smash it, hence a market for SS.
Yes Toby I agree - and it would be great to see Terry and Paul sit down together.
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  #24  
Old 02-25-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachToby View Post
Personally I do think the term "overglider" is used by SS as a derogative term to deride TI. As Suzanne points out, this rift between the two camps may have something to do with blog posts by Ian a few years ago - I vaugely remeber reading a lengthy discussion between Ian and a few others (one or more may have been from the SS camp) and it got pretty heated. Ian was never one to pussey foot around when it came to his opinion on swimming.
Yep, this used to happen back in 2005, mostly on Tritalk.co.uk. Back then, the main subject of controversy was not "dead spots" or "overgliding" though, but rather the relationship between dps/rate and resulting speed. I keep very good memories of these debates, and could maintain very fair friendship with Ian, who even sent me a gift, the same year he passed away.

As boring as this might sound, I think the term Overglider was first coined in 2010, when the swim types system was first released. The Swinger type has to be the most important type discovered, or defined back then though. The OG is among 6 types.

Never before had Overglider been used in the literature.

It is really that simple. The purpose of the swim types system is to cover the whole spectrum of swimmer types/personalities. OG came along with the 5 other types, therefore released as part of a package.

Now, think of it. They've worked quite hard to release this system. They were very happy and proud (and relieved, just like after any birth) with their swim types concept as a whole. I can't think of them focusing on the OG type as a mean way to compete against any others back then.

I have this often problematic tendency to speak very frankly. I truly think that this little come back on the genesis of this controversial term does reflect the reality.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 02-25-2014 at 02:45 PM.
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  #25  
Old 02-25-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hey Charles,

Quote:
...I have this often problematic tendency to speak very frankly....
... and very friendly! Never read an other post from you, neither here nor in the smooth forum...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #26  
Old 02-25-2014
CoachToby CoachToby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Yep, this used to happen back in 2005, mostly on Tritalk.co.uk. Back then, the main subject of controversy was not "dead spots" or "overgliding" though, but rather the relationship between dps/rate and resulting speed. I keep very good memories of these debates, and could maintain very fair friendship with Ian, who even sent me a gift, the same year he passed away.

As boring as this might sound, I think the term Overglider was first coined in 2010, when the swim types system was first released. The Swinger type has to be the most important type discovered, or defined back then though. The OG is among 6 types.

Never before had Overglider been used in the literature.

It is really that simple. The purpose of the swim types system is to cover the whole spectrum of swimmer types/personalities. OG came along with the 5 other types, therefore released as part of a package.

Now, think of it. They've worked quite hard to release this system. They were very happy and proud (and relieved, just like after any birth) with their swim types concept as a whole. I can't think of them focusing on the OG type as a mean way to compete against any others back then.

I have this often problematic tendency to speak very frankly. I truly think that this little come back on the genesis of this controversial term does reflect the reality.
The SS forum contains a post by Adam Young in May 2009. He describes in detail why TI teaches an overgliding style (yep, he uses the term) and why this is a bad thing.
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  #27  
Old 02-25-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachToby View Post
The SS forum contains a post by Adam Young in May 2009. He describes in detail why TI teaches an overgliding style (yep, he uses the term) and why this is a bad thing.
This seems odd, but you may be right. This data no longer exists it seems though. Adam's oldest post dates back to July of the same year, in which he was introducing himself to the coach network community.

Listen, I did spend 10 days sharing the same hotel room (in the UK) a full year after (ie, in Nov 2010), we've chat swimming under various level of drunkness, sometimes not drunk at all, sometimes with a few beers under the belt, the only discussion I remember where TI was mentioned was whilst driving with Paul, he mentioned that Ian would live close to where we were driving, and that his only meeting with him had been a surprisingly pleasant experience.

A quick search on Tritalk.co.uk, where TI vs SS was much more thoroughly discussed, over the keyword overgliding, returned this thread as being the oldest containing the keyword. Dates back to 2010. That was well before I even registered on TI. If anyone has any doubt about my sincerity, just read my comments, you'll notice how boringly consistent I have been over time (in trying to recognize the good everywhere I can find it). I'm SolarEnergy there.

http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/view...2fcacbdf1874de

**edit**
so funny to read ourselves few years after the facts. Here's what my take was at the time on this spl vs sr focus:
http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/view...109148#1109148

"A drastic increase in SR for you could conflict with the process of cutting on drag resistance. So without being a Swim Types specialist (Paul, the father of the concept has a serious lead obviously), I'd venture in proposing that like a lot of other things, it's better to observe a progression."


Haven't changed much ever since (maybe it's a bad sign? lol)

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 02-25-2014 at 08:16 PM.
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  #28  
Old 02-25-2014
machelett machelett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachToby View Post
Personally I do think the term "overglider" is used by SS as a derogative term to deride TI.
I believe that if SwimSmooth wanted to deride TI, they would have made it so that everybody inevitably pairs TI and the Bambino type, which could be done easily.
I've seen quite a few self-taught TI swimmers--they're easy to spot and easy to talk to--and the majority showed most of the traits of a Bambino, just like myself.

Calling people overly analytical isn't the first thing that I would think of if I wanted to smear them...
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  #29  
Old 02-25-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
so funny to read ourselves few years after the facts. Here's what my take was at the time on this spl vs sr focus:
http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/view...109148#1109148

"A drastic increase in SR for you could conflict with the process of cutting on drag resistance. So without being a Swim Types specialist (Paul, the father of the concept has a serious lead obviously), I'd venture in proposing that like a lot of other things, it's better to observe a progression."


Haven't changed much ever since (maybe it's a bad sign? lol)
Content aside, your english has improved considerably! ;) (Teasing)
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  #30  
Old 02-25-2014
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachToby View Post
The SS forum contains a post by Adam Young in May 2009. He describes in detail why TI teaches an overgliding style (yep, he uses the term) and why this is a bad thing.
Coach Toby: I've read posts from this guy where he actually characterizes Shinji Takeuchi as an "Over Glider". Clearly this is a dig at TI's model swimmer to self promote. The cartoon marketing will go so far before the public sees through the smoke and mirrors. Animation and digital models create the perception of reality. There's perception and reality, perceptions are easily manipulated - and that's marketing.

I recently watched an "over glider" analysis diagnosing the source of the swimmer's problem as the pause of the arm in front, and then completely ignores the pause of recovery arm at the hip, elbow lifting over torso, body stacked almost tipping passed 90 degs, body's imbalanced and unstable. But I realize what is obvious to me, may not be obvious to others.

One thing I truly enjoy as coach, and learn so much from, is closely studying each swimmer from the deck, body types, and how each processes instruction and feedback so differently - each person is very unique. There is no one size fits all or most sizes fit all, humans are not simplistic as some would try to make us out to be.

Focused instruction, breaking the complexity of freestyle into small, manageable mini-skills and focal points. It's fascinating to see how quickly a swimmer can improve with sharp focus and how powerful the brain processes information into precise actions, provided we allow it (the swimmer's brain) to do its job.

Stuart
MindBodyAndSWIM

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 02-25-2014 at 11:57 PM.
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