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  #1  
Old 07-15-2013
KarenE KarenE is offline
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KarenE
Default 2BK trouble

I'm having trouble getting the 2BK - been going thru the self coaching and had 2 very helpful lessons mostly focused on the earlier stuff. Throughout this time when actually swimming i had developed a kind of bizarre variation of the 2BK - the leg/timing were right, but instead of the kick i was doing a kind of glute- squeeze that sent the leg out instead of down - it does propel me and it feels great like flying, but clearly is expanding rather than streamlining my body- wings instead of mermaid tail - but now that i'm trying to shift to the right movement it feels much less powerful - i think the old way i was moving was also propelling my torso into rolling which was good but from the wrong starting place mb causing over rolling - I can do the kick fine vertically just doesn't translate to any power horizontally - any thoughts how to turn my old sway out style into the real 2bk - or helping me feel where exactly the power for it starts - or other threads already on this to direct me to

Thanks so much
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  #2  
Old 07-15-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenE View Post
I'm having trouble getting the 2BK - been going thru the self coaching and had 2 very helpful lessons mostly focused on the earlier stuff. Throughout this time when actually swimming i had developed a kind of bizarre variation of the 2BK - the leg/timing were right, but instead of the kick i was doing a kind of glute- squeeze that sent the leg out instead of down - it does propel me and it feels great like flying, but clearly is expanding rather than streamlining my body- wings instead of mermaid tail - but now that i'm trying to shift to the right movement it feels much less powerful - i think the old way i was moving was also propelling my torso into rolling which was good but from the wrong starting place mb causing over rolling - I can do the kick fine vertically just doesn't translate to any power horizontally - any thoughts how to turn my old sway out style into the real 2bk - or helping me feel where exactly the power for it starts - or other threads already on this to direct me to

Thanks so much
hmm any way to post a video? underwater side would be optimal.

my first thought would be to do SG but with arms at the sides, and to kick each leg gently, using the correct form, to feel rotation and dip in the opposite shoulder. once you get used to the correct kick, then move to SG to Skate to one stroke only with a kick in 2BK style. glide to a stop. stand up. repeat. repeat one side all the way down the lane. then switch to the other side forward on the way back.

for more illustration of the 2BK, watch this Shinji video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHHOx...69EA66CC48DC18

start at about :45 in where the video goes underwater. the text description of this is below.

the correct form of the kick is:

1. start with both legs extended straight out behind you.

2. pick the leg you want to kick.

3. release the tension in the knee, causing the knee to drop down or forward of your body. your foot most likely will still be near the other leg but now your knee has bent. Your foot should not be cocked behind your leg which also bends your knee but then your knee is probably still in line with the leg whereas your foot is not.

4. snap the foot forward gently. this should induce a counter reaction force that sends your hip away from the kick, rotating your opposite shoulder down in the water.

5. as you move forward in the water, keep minimal tension in the kicking leg and let your forward momentum draw the leg back behind you as you're moving forward.

6. repeat on the other side.
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  #3  
Old 07-16-2013
zerdna zerdna is offline
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Default not clear about 2bK either

I got to say i am getting very confused with kicking syncing with arm movement. In the video of Shinji that is referenced here and in the description above by the coach David Shen, the kick of the right leg happens at the same time with left arm going forward. In the TI video they say move right hip to send forward right arm, which sort of make sense to me. This is similar to how front fist hit happens in karate. But that's not what Shinji seem to do - he doesn't seem to even move the right hip. Could someone clear it up to me?
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  #4  
Old 07-16-2013
ernewill ernewill is offline
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They are both correct. With the 2BK as you kick with a leg, it helps start the rotation of the opposite hip down at the same time that the opposite arm (opposite of the kicking leg) is finishing its entry in the mail slot and extending. So, when I kick with my right leg the following things are happening:
- Rotation of left hip and torso down
- Left arm is mostly through the mail slot
- Right arm is catching and starting the pull

So you are correct. As your right hip rotates down, your right arm pretty much through the slot and finding its pre-catch position. If you watch Shinji, you will see that he is doing just that.
As you get used to the 2BK, start with small kicks. Move your feet only 6 or 8 inches. Get the rhythm and coordination before putting more power in them.
Good luck!
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Old 07-16-2013
zerdna zerdna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ernewill View Post
They are both correct. With the 2BK as you kick with a leg, it helps start the rotation of the opposite hip down at the same time that the opposite arm (opposite of the kicking leg) is finishing its entry in the mail slot and extending. So, when I kick with my right leg the following things are happening:
- Rotation of left hip and torso down
- Left arm is mostly through the mail slot
- Right arm is catching and starting the pull

So you are correct. As your right hip rotates down, your right arm pretty much through the slot and finding its pre-catch position. If you watch Shinji, you will see that he is doing just that.
As you get used to the 2BK, start with small kicks. Move your feet only 6 or 8 inches. Get the rhythm and coordination before putting more power in them.
Good luck!
I see, thanks. I just didn't get what part of the body initiates the movement. In martial arts the hip basically sends the spear of of the same side hand flying -- i thought this is the same idea. They say, "throw with your hips" in karate.

In official TI video, movement does start with same side hip. Terry moves the hip and sends the arm spear on the same side. Then he finishes the catch with the finish of the kick of the opposite leg. So this i understand and understand why this is called 2 beat kick.

Looking at Sunji it doesn't seem this is happening in the same way. Right leg kick initiates left arm spear and then after arm catches, rotation of the body to the left continues, but it doesn't go from the left hip, hip rotates simultaneously with the trunk. I don't even see the movement of the leg on the same side as the spearing arm. It' looks more like one beat kick to me.

I am pretty sure i am not catching something subtle in Sunji video. He swims beautifully and smoothly. I am just calling it as i see it.

Last edited by zerdna : 07-16-2013 at 03:48 AM.
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  #6  
Old 07-16-2013
KarenE KarenE is offline
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Thank you so much Coach David Shen! I followed just what you said (including channeling Shinji) and indeed it worked! I mean not with anything approaching his or anyone's grace, but i get the idea now and can do it very slowly - I got to experience several times the drop the knee-snap-roll-charge sensation. Now at least it is enough in place to work on it - I can't video where i swim but hopefully will be able to outdoors next week. Again thanks.
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  #7  
Old 07-16-2013
ernewill ernewill is offline
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People like Terry and Shinji are the Tiger Woods' of swimming these kinds of strokes. It is like a golf swing, there are so many elements required to go together for a good golf stroke. It is difficult to do consistently. But, it makes it sort of fun to pursue perfection. And, along the way we all become better swimmers. I will never match Shinji or Terry, but I am having fun trying and am a much better swimmer than I was several years ago.
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  #8  
Old 07-17-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerdna View Post
I got to say i am getting very confused with kicking syncing with arm movement. In the video of Shinji that is referenced here and in the description above by the coach David Shen, the kick of the right leg happens at the same time with left arm going forward. In the TI video they say move right hip to send forward right arm, which sort of make sense to me. This is similar to how front fist hit happens in karate. But that's not what Shinji seem to do - he doesn't seem to even move the right hip. Could someone clear it up to me?
I am not sure which Terry video you are referencing. but even Terry has said that the kick "sends the spear on its way" as one of the focal points he uses. it is always the foot on the opposite side of the spearing arm that kicks. yes the hip is very involved, but you want to use the foot to give it its bit of energy in its rotation which is additive to the rotation of the hip itself.

the kicking foot drives the rotation of the hips. it will cause rotation of the opposite hip downward, which sends energy across the torso to the spearing arm. I'm pretty sure Shinji does this even if you cannot see it in his video.
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  #9  
Old 07-17-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerdna View Post
In the TI video they say move right hip to send forward right arm, which sort of make sense to me.
Oh didn't answer this- i think its a bit of semantics here. Let's talk about the right arm. In my description, i would say:

1. kick the left leg
2. lifts the left hip up while right hip rotates down
3. sends energy across torso through right shoulder, and out the spearing right arm.

so yes the right hip is moving but it is rotating down in sync with the right arm spearing forward. however, it is the left leg that is adding energy to that entire action, sending the left hip up, or rotating away from the kicking leg in response to that kicking force.
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  #10  
Old 07-17-2013
craig.arnold@gmail.com craig.arnold@gmail.com is offline
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I'm not sure anyone times their 2bk in absolutely the same way. The point really is that the kick and the extension/pull need to be co-ordinated for maximum effect.

It is very similar to a martial arts punch (or perhaps the shotput action of an athlete). Imagine punching straight up into the air, but with a spear not a fist. As long as the timing of the kick helps to engage the core to push the arm forward and rotate the torso for the pull on the other side it will look and feel natural.

Relatively little actual propulsion comes from the foot/leg pushing against the water, the importance is the engagement of the core as opposed to the shoulders/triceps and quads.

Elite swimmers of course will engage everything optimally and generate thrust from the kick too. But we can all deal with those issues when we start swimming 100s off 1:00. :)
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