Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants

[WFEGb]

Hello Dave,

...I don't think a stiff leg or an extended up kick will really do much good but I guess it can give you an initial temporary feeling to aim for .

Thank you, think some timing- and "leg-fluke-motion-trys" will become FPs next weeks... What struck me from this thread, is not only Terry's "late" kick, but even his late upkick just before, seems to me being very often after catch and while the press-phase starts or even has started (Terry: I never press hard...). Had a long time to calm my legs from bike-motion into streamline and then was glad to feel it nearly drifting upward without any upkick. Seems time to be revised...

Best regards,
Werner

[daveblt]

When it comes to the 2 beat I try to not think too much and just let core rhythms move it along .When I reach forward I just let my leg my leg upbeat at the same time so at so my leg is at the highest point with a stretched out feeling the same time my hand reaches full spear extension. Then the arm pulls and the downbeat happens .

Don't think ...feel

Dave

[Danny]

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

Hi Danny,

I've coached a lot of swimmers just like what you are describing. What may seem very counter-intuitive to fixing the dropped elbow on the low side is actually work first on the high side release, path forward, entry and forward extension. Any imbalance created with the high side arm, lifting early over hip, tense shoulder/arm, entering flat, etc will trigger the low side arm to pull with the hand (dropping elbow) to correct the imbalance. Any amount of "shaping" the low side arm will be lost due to imbalance created by high side (recovery) arm doing the wrong thing.

A tool that will help you is using the Finis Forearm Fulcums. This keeps the hand, wrist, elbow in line, any pulling with the hand, the fulcrum falls off. Also, any imbalance patterns with the recovery arm, lifting early, bending wrist - the fulcrum falls off. This will give you the awareness of the hand taking over whether on low or high side arms. Closed hands also works well for this problem too, but when a fulcrum falls off the arm - awareness is immediate.

Re: Imitating Shelly (Taylor or Ripple) vs Terry. You will find your own path and journey and there will be similarities swimmer to swimmer.

Shelly Taylor is 5'4" 75 strokes per minute, with above average aquatic profile - she can easily float horizontal without moving or adjusting arms and legs. Terry is 6'1", 55 strokes per minute, with a very low aquatic profile (like most of us guys). Hips sink quick and requires specific positions with arms and legs to maintain a balanced profile. Shelly and Terry are two very different vessels and profiles, so it's not a binary choice of one over the other.

Shelly T's high profile is both blessing and a curse. High profile, a blessing, any errors in stroke don't cause the hips to sink - relatively easy to maintain horizontal balance naturally. The curse, very difficult to rotate, all shoulder adaptation from (shoulder) tension, pausing at hip and lifting arm out of water low from shoulder, extending high side arm flat entering almost elbow first due to rotating body pulling on low side arm early. These adaptive movement patterns don't cause her hips to sink due to her high profile, but cause the back to arch and go "core soft".

Terry's low profile is both curse and blessing. Low profile, any errors in stroke, hips drop, drag increases exponentially. Blessing in that it's easy to rotate and get high side arm out of the water, soft/light shoulder. Keeping the arm weight and momentum turning in front of head (lungs) keeps the hips high. This too is a blessing since the core is completely engaged throughout the stroke cycle, shoulders/arms, hips/legs limber and fluid - core tone and engaged.

If I swam like Shelly T, shoulder driven, stiff legs - my hips would immediately drop 6 to 8", possibly more. Even though I'm shorter than Terry, my aquatic profile is even deeper, hips drop fast with any imbalance or stroke error; so I swim hip/core driven, very front quadrant to keep hips at surface maintaining streamline.

There are a lot of factors and you will find what works for you personally. But I always coach swimmers core engage/driven, soft and fluid shoulders/arms, fluid hips and legs whether sprinter or mid to long distance, short or tall, high or low aquatic profiles. The main difference is tempo or turnover rate that works best for them given their height (wingspan), skill and distance they're swimming.

Anyway - I suggest correcting the high side arm to fix the low side dropping elbow, avoid pulling on the hand. Use the finish forearm fulcrum to build awareness

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

Hi Stuart, There's a lot of good info in your above message, and I appreciate that. I did look at the video of the Finis Forearm Fulcrum, and I like the concept. Just looking at people using it, I feel like I understand how it might help me. If I didn't already have so much junk in my house, I would be tempted to buy one, but I am going to resist that temptation, for now at least, and see if I can get away without it. I've been swimming with closed fists for years now, and I have no trouble with that, but the fulcrum seems like possibly a better solution.

I will spend some time focusing on the recovering arm (while trying to keep my downside elbow up) and I'll work at this for a while. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks again for all the good info!

[WFEGb]

Hello Dave,

When it comes to the 2 beat I try to not think too much and just let core rhythms move it along .When I reach forward I just let my leg my leg upbeat at the same time so at so my leg is at the highest point with a stretched out feeling the same time my hand reaches full spear extension. Then the arm pulls and the downbeat happens .

Don't think ...feel

Thank you! Think what you described is just my actual "state of art", but with that, I've never reached Terry's sensation of constant pressure along the whole leg. Anyway, it will not hurt to stay aware and play a bit around with the kick.

Best regards,
Werner

[Zenturtle]

I have my thoughts about `errors` in the stroke from the statically balanced swimmers.

lets say we have 2 swimmers.

-Swimmer A is statically balanced, that is, the swimmers does float horizontally without any energy input, except some postural toning.
-Swimmer B is statically unbalanced. Even with maximal adaptions regarding the posture, the legs still sink.

This is a basic unbalance thats always there and needs special measures to counteract.
The unbalanced swimmer has to make certain adaptations to the stroke to become balanced.

Its by no means certain that these adaptations, that the unbalanced swimmer has to make, are advantagous for the statically balanced swimmer.
In theory they even can be counterproductive, because they are measures to solve a problem that doesnt exist, and therefore non efficient for the statically balanced swimmer.

Therefore I wouldnt call the absence of tricks the statically unbalancend swimmer has to use `errors`.

The Statically balanced swimmer just has more freedom to choose the most optimal movement pattern that brings the swimmer through the water in the most optimal way.
That optimal movement pattern doenst have to be the one that the non balanced swimmer has to choose by necessity.

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

I have my thoughts about `errors` in the stroke from the statically balanced swimmers.

lets say we have 2 swimmers.

-Swimmer A is statically balanced, that is, the swimmers does float horizontally without any energy input, except some postural toning.
-Swimmer B is statically unbalanced. Even with maximal adaptions regarding the posture, the legs still sink.

This is a basic unbalance thats always there and needs special measures to counteract.
The unbalanced swimmer has to make certain adaptations to the stroke to become balanced.

Its by no means certain that these adaptations, that the unbalanced swimmer has to make, are advantagous for the statically balanced swimmer.
In theory they even can be counterproductive, because they are measures to solve a problem that doesnt exist, and therefore non efficient for the statically balanced swimmer.


Therefore I wouldnt call the absence of tricks the statically unbalancend swimmer has to use `errors`.

The Statically balanced swimmer just has more freedom to choose the most optimal movement pattern that brings the swimmer through the water in the most optimal way.
That optimal movement pattern doenst have to be the one that the non balanced swimmer has to choose by necessity.

Like trying to stick rigidly to SoL when F & P would be more optimal / efficient?

Sounds like my troube now i can quantify it.

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

mushroomfloat, you might find the finding freestyle drills interesting

https://www.youtube.com/user/soulswimmer9/videos

its about the basic 2 swimming styles,
-float and paddle style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvKBIJqY94w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9emyWcqrLXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eXWjtryVO8 next stage with one leg added.

- statue of liberty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O3p0BuyPcA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJt7OcueRy8
everybody has to find his her optimal mix between these 2.

I dont agree with their description of twisting of the torso. What they show is bending and twisting of the torso combined.
They dont differentiate different movements very well.

There are 3 movements the torso can make:
Twisting
bending
undulating.
So enough to play with ha ha

TI is very much at the statue of liberty end of the spectrum, but with a 2BK.

Really helpful cheers :-)

[fooboo]

There is no reason to take into account non-balanced swimming.
More and more, personally, I appreciate recovery arm weight tip.
Head position and patient leading arm add to it. What differ for me
is an anchor. I still feel it is important part of forward movement.

[Zenturtle]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

Float & Paddle eh?

Shelly T looks like float & paddle to me know i review it.

https://youtu.be/wt6_bqj_808

But she does hardly anyting with the torso except bracing against the almost straight legs. HIps to shoulders move almost as one solid block. She doesnt have kayak timing either, its just at the edge of front quadrant. Low arm just before 90 degrees when other arm enters. Very standard basic timing. Nobody swims really like float and paddle, but its nice to be conscious about that internal torso muscle activation that can be used more or less during your stroke.

Young Phelps uses a combination of twisting, bending and undulation to get his body past his anchoring left arm.
He goes through the water more in one line now, but still the same basic movement pattern is there. Watch his spine and imagine how his skeleton moves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pziUBplSIK0

Thorpe has a lot of shoulder twist (and extension) relative to hip rotation.

Different folks, different strokes.

[WFEGb]

Hello ZT,

...Therefore I wouldnt call the absence of tricks the statically unbalancend swimmer has to use `errors`.

The Statically balanced swimmer just has more freedom to choose the most optimal movement pattern that brings the swimmer through the water in the most optimal way.
That optimal movement pattern doenst have to be the one that the non balanced swimmer has to choose by necessity.

You speak a big word calmly, as we in Germany say... and then the decision follows: What are really necessary tiny tricks for the (natural?) unbalanced swimmers are they real improvements, what are unnecessary bad (breaking balance and streamline) habits? And as said before, there are some coaches, convinced balance and streamline won't become important, before you can swim with a pace of 1:30min/100m.

Love the similarity to Feynman's Principle of Smallest Effect, finding the ideal path (of infinity much) by tiny variation on each possible. (Think navis work the same way, but with finally many ways...)... And that's nearly Kaizen...

Best regards,
Werner