Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants

[Danny]

Hi Inge, I think one of the difficulties in giving internet advice is that you don't know what main issues need to be addressed in the person receiving the advice. This may help explain in part some of the differences I perceive in Stuart's advice and in what Terry was saying in his discussion referenced earlier. I have a strong tendency to drop my elbow on the low side arm, so Stuart's advice to focus on the high side arm probably doesn't apply to me. I need to focus at least enough on my low side to prevent myself from dropping that elbow. On the other hand, if I succeed in doing that, Stuart's advice starts to make a lot more sense. This morning as I was swimming, I was playing around with concentrating on the high side and spearing forward as Stuart recommends, and I found that perspective very useful, as long as I paid enough attention to my low side to prevent myself from dropping that elbow. In Terry's discussion he spent a lot of time talking about how to keep the low side elbow up, which is why I found that discussion useful. On the other hand, as long as I manage to keep that elbow up, focussing on the high side entry and using it to drive the high side shoulder past the low side anchor is a useful mental image.

One of the first things that happens to me as I try to increase my stroke rate is that I drop my low side elbow in the process. I don't know how unique this problem is to me, but at least some of it may be related to an old shoulder injury. You characterized yourself as small and nimble; I would characterize myself as slow and arthritic. Shelly Ripple's swim style may not be playing to whatever strengths I have, but I still feel that there may be something I can learn from her.

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

mushroomfloat, you might find the finding freestyle drills interesting

https://www.youtube.com/user/soulswimmer9/videos

its about the basic 2 swimming styles,
-float and paddle style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvKBIJqY94w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9emyWcqrLXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eXWjtryVO8 next stage with one leg added.

- statue of liberty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O3p0BuyPcA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJt7OcueRy8
everybody has to find his her optimal mix between these 2.

I dont agree with their description of twisting of the torso. What they show is bending and twisting of the torso combined.
They dont differentiate different movements very well.

There are 3 movements the torso can make:
Twisting
bending
undulating.
So enough to play with ha ha

TI is very much at the statue of liberty end of the spectrum, but with a 2BK.

Thanks! that joins a few dots for me.
i have been swimming all of those as different strokes probably heading to the final destination in a roundabout way.
I totally get the head lead thing, its one of my main focusses getting the head back down in time with the pull and using it to drive the stroke.

And the shoulders remaining straight as kayak

I finished up last night with a stroke that was catching in the front whilt exiting in the back with highelbow catch & highelbow recovery that was just happening through the shoulders / rotation
very fast and automatic as if both arms connected.

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Hi Danny,

I've coached a lot of swimmers just like what you are describing. What may seem very counter-intuitive to fixing the dropped elbow on the low side is actually work first on the high side release, path forward, entry and forward extension. Any imbalance created with the high side arm, lifting early over hip, tense shoulder/arm, entering flat, etc will trigger the low side arm to pull with the hand (dropping elbow) to correct the imbalance. Any amount of "shaping" the low side arm will be lost due to imbalance created by high side (recovery) arm doing the wrong thing.

A tool that will help you is using the Finis Forearm Fulcums. This keeps the hand, wrist, elbow in line, any pulling with the hand, the fulcrum falls off. Also, any imbalance patterns with the recovery arm, lifting early, bending wrist - the fulcrum falls off. This will give you the awareness of the hand taking over whether on low or high side arms. Closed hands also works well for this problem too, but when a fulcrum falls off the arm - awareness is immediate.

Re: Imitating Shelly (Taylor or Ripple) vs Terry. You will find your own path and journey and there will be similarities swimmer to swimmer.

Shelly Taylor is 5'4" 75 strokes per minute, with above average aquatic profile - she can easily float horizontal without moving or adjusting arms and legs. Terry is 6'1", 55 strokes per minute, with a very low aquatic profile (like most of us guys). Hips sink quick and requires specific positions with arms and legs to maintain a balanced profile. Shelly and Terry are two very different vessels and profiles, so it's not a binary choice of one over the other.

Shelly T's high profile is both blessing and a curse. High profile, a blessing, any errors in stroke don't cause the hips to sink - relatively easy to maintain horizontal balance naturally. The curse, very difficult to rotate, all shoulder adaptation from (shoulder) tension, pausing at hip and lifting arm out of water low from shoulder, extending high side arm flat entering almost elbow first due to rotating body pulling on low side arm early. These adaptive movement patterns don't cause her hips to sink due to her high profile, but cause the back to arch and go "core soft".

Terry's low profile is both curse and blessing. Low profile, any errors in stroke, hips drop, drag increases exponentially. Blessing in that it's easy to rotate and get high side arm out of the water, soft/light shoulder. Keeping the arm weight and momentum turning in front of head (lungs) keeps the hips high. This too is a blessing since the core is completely engaged throughout the stroke cycle, shoulders/arms, hips/legs limber and fluid - core tone and engaged.

If I swam like Shelly T, shoulder driven, stiff legs - my hips would immediately drop 6 to 8", possibly more. Even though I'm shorter than Terry, my aquatic profile is even deeper, hips drop fast with any imbalance or stroke error; so I swim hip/core driven, very front quadrant to keep hips at surface maintaining streamline.

There are a lot of factors and you will find what works for you personally. But I always coach swimmers core engage/driven, soft and fluid shoulders/arms, fluid hips and legs whether sprinter or mid to long distance, short or tall, high or low aquatic profiles. The main difference is tempo or turnover rate that works best for them given their height (wingspan), skill and distance they're swimming.

Anyway - I suggest correcting the high side arm to fix the low side dropping elbow, avoid pulling on the hand. Use the finish forearm fulcrum to build awareness

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

[WFEGb]

Hello,

for the moment...

first: I got confused (Lost in Translation?) in this thread, spreaded too wide and some arguments don't look consistent to me, if I'm able to find them at all. OK, seems I've done my own part on this.

Second: Glad ZT is back with lots of video-examples, eagle-eye and well thought analyzes, and am admiring Mushroomfloat for all this video-links, although our insights and conclusions are quite different.

Third: Dave, do you have special mini-FPs when focusing in the upkick? I didn't have in mind till now, but am working for a long time now and then on my kick, because I can not achieve the feeling, Terry describes in 2.0 Mastery, the constant pressure on the whole kicking leg. Do feel it only from knee downward. To feel it up to thigh I have to stiffen the leg and kick far out of streamline. Will see, if an extended upkick will helpt ot get this feeling.

Fourth: Danny, did you ever try swimming with fistgloves? You wan't get a grip with dropped elbows... and may be worth a try as Finis fulcrums.

Best regards,
Werner

[sclim]

I have been intermittently lurking as take a break from swimming while regrowing skin after a high speed bike crash 3 weeks ago.

I seem to have created a monster with my innocent original post! But a good monster lol. The various points of view have been fascinating. Even the apparent contradictions have been a stimulus for careful explanations, some of which have been very enlightening. There has been a lot of information to digest here. I hope I have the energy and focus to review this over and over in the future as my experience and technique improve -- currently there sometimes may be more information than I can make use of.

[WFEGb]

Hello Sclim,

wish you a quick recovery!!!

I seem to have created a monster with my innocent original post! But a good monster lol. The various points of view have been fascinating. ...

... and if you're going to structure all that stuff and/or evaluate some of your pin points, don't do it just for yourself but please let us participate...

Best regards,
Werner

Float & Paddle eh?

Shelly T looks like float & paddle to me know i review it.

https://youtu.be/wt6_bqj_808

1 beat kick too ?

I found the full 1hr 22 four strokes made easy TI video from 20yrs ago:

https://youtu.be/vVEMAzdo8nM

[daveblt]

Originally Posted by WFEGb

Hello,
Third: Dave, do you have special mini-FPs when focusing in the upkick? I didn't have in mind till now, but am working for a long time now and then on my kick, because I can not achieve the feeling, Terry describes in 2.0 Mastery, the constant pressure on the whole kicking leg. Do feel it only from knee downward. To feel it up to thigh I have to stiffen the leg and kick far out of streamline. Will see, if an extended upkick will helpt ot get this feeling
Best regards,
Werner

Mini FPs ? Not sure what you mean ,Flippers ? Nope, but anyway I used to feel it much more from the knee down like you mentioned until I finally worked out better BALANCE ...BALANCE is the key . Now I can honestly say that my kick seems to originate a lot more from my core and glutes and my legs are more relaxed .I don't think a stiff leg or an extended up kick will really do much good but I guess it can give you an initial temporary feeling to aim for .

Dave