Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants

My understanding of rotation at the moment is that is initiated by the "breaking of the line" that is formed at extension by one side of your body.
I only realized recently doing some types physical therapy of my own that "extension" is a pretty misleading term from bio-mechanical POV.
Pretty much as I extend my arm I also pull on the lats (of the same side). It is of great importance in creating a (or finding the)" line", at least for me.
As also notice that proper pull on the lats encourage the use external rotation for the forearm extension (which is healthier).

Back to rotation, one side of body is aligned (pelvis shoulder) and its lowest point at the end of extension before the catch. So I start to rotate after that moment, proper connection does the rest (or at least that is plan... lol).

EDIT I meant external rotation of the arm / humerus. As for the forearm its in opposed max pronation.
It got me to discover that I lack strength, lots of it, and that I never did push-up... wrong kinetic chain all together... Using the righ kinetic chain actually having the arm and forearm rotating in opposite direction feels right if not powerful.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

Hi Danny,

That’s a great video, Terry goes into great detail words alone cannot cover in a forum post - but I don’t see anything to reconcile other that using different words. “Simplying movements into one awareness” when he’s talking about rediscovering the recovery arm and weight shift. Terry notes to avoid intentionally positioning the forearm vertical, or the “EFV” unless you’re Grant Hackett who can almost dislocate his shoulder at will. Absolutely, intentionally positioning the arm vertically, it will probably be wrong, damage your shoulders, and add nothing to propulsive force especially being out of leverage. Terry uses “weight shift” where I describe as external forces of the weight and momentum (gravity) of the high side arm to maintain balance and rotatate body to its opposite edge as it drops in to forward extension. The main emphasis is what’s moving forward not what’s moving back.

So my question goes back to you: What statement(s) or definition(s) are in conflict and require reconciling?

Stu
MindBodyAndSwim.com

Hi Stuart, I am fascinated by the fact that you seem to believe that you and Terry are talking about the same thing, where as I believe your perspectives are entirely different. It seems to point to some of the major difficulties in communicating these things via language. Needless to say, Terry's discussion is too long to lay out here in entirety, so I will just point out some of the things that seem entirely different in your approaches. Terry seems to spend most of his time discussing the catch, not the recovery. For example, at around 6:30 in the film, he starts talking about what the limiting factors are in how much pressure you can apply to the water and states that the limiting factor is the muscle on top of your low side shoulder. He also goes on to discuss at length how to control that pressure so as to keep a handle on the ball of water as you are moving past it. His entire discussion seems to me to be focused on the catch and the forward arm, rather than the recovery. So let me ask you: where is Terry discussing how the high side arm triggers the low side arm, as you are claiming? I found no mention of this in his discussion.

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Originally Posted by Danny

Hi Stuart, I am fascinated by the fact that you seem to believe that you and Terry are talking about the same thing, where as I believe your perspectives are entirely different. It seems to point to some of the major difficulties in communicating these things via language. Needless to say, Terry's discussion is too long to lay out here in entirety, so I will just point out some of the things that seem entirely different in your approaches. Terry seems to spend most of his time discussing the catch, not the recovery. For example, at around 6:30 in the film, he starts talking about what the limiting factors are in how much pressure you can apply to the water and states that the limiting factor is the muscle on top of your low side shoulder. He also goes on to discuss at length how to control that pressure so as to keep a handle on the ball of water as you are moving past it. His entire discussion seems to me to be focused on the catch and the forward arm, rather than the recovery. So let me ask you: where is Terry discussing how the high side arm triggers the low side arm, as you are claiming? I found no mention of this in his discussion.

Hi Danny,

I'm equally as fascinated as you in your response. Terry certainly discusses the catch with the arm extended, hand relaxed, holding a ball of water, light pressure and the amount of hours it takes to feel that pressure. He also doesn't mention how the high side arm rotates the body, only notes "weight shift" - although that's one of our main principles. Terry didn't use "the high side triggers the low side" language, but the high side is rotating the body while holding your edge with the low side arm - rotation is going to move or "trigger" the low side arm into holding the ball of water provided you don't pull, rip the arm back. However - that's not in the context of this video which you are using to support your argument. If you've been studying TI, this is implied and seen as Terry's recovery arm dropping and rotating the body - the low side arm moves back naturally in a whole body movement in his rehearsal on the beach.

There will always be subtle awareness or focus on any part of the stroke. Holding a ball of water, vaulting over low side arm, light pressure, swinging recovery arm away from body, driving hip, snapping toes down (toe flick) - high side and low side arms through pelvis and legs is one coordinated movement, not independent departments.

Selectively picking out language that is different in 14 mins of video, changing context is a bit of a stretch. I don't have a 14 min video and have only a post or two, three to help swimmers with another TI viewpoint and visual. If you don't like the descriptions, perspectives - you are always welcome to challenge.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

[Danny]

Hi Stuart,
For me, it's not a question of liking or disliking descriptions. I am only trying to learn from both you and Terry, and if you seem to be saying different things I get confused.

When I look at Terry's swimming style, it never seems as if he is rushing his recovery or throwing his arm forward. As we have noted previously, this may be in part because Terry's demo videos are always at a stroke rate of about 1.4s, which is pretty slow. What impresses me about his swimming is that, even at this slow stroke rate he swims fast because his DPS is so large. When I focus on throwing my recovery arm forward, I seem to lose DPS, sometimes so much so that my actual speed diminishes. This is probably because I am still missing something in this process, even though I have worked on it for some time. So again, I am still trying to learn.

In contrast, if I look at someone like, for example, Shelly Ripple, her swimming style seems to be a beautiful illustration of how to get good DPS by throwing your recovery arm forward. I would love to be able to swim like Shelly, but so far I don't even feel like I really understand what I should be trying to do to imitate her style. Every attempt so far fails dismally.

I would also love to be able to swim like Terry, but I must say that his technique seems to me to differ in a number of ways from Shelly's. Although I am far from swimming like Terry, I do feel that I have some understanding of what I should try to do to imitate him, which is not the case with Shelly. Terry seems deliberate and relaxed, whereas Shelly seems ballistic. I am sure that their two styles have a lot in common, as does all good swimming, but to me they represent different swimming styles.

On a personal level, I am still struggling with the question of which style I should try to imitate, or what combination of styles best suits me. So far, I gravitate towards Terry's style, because I feel like I understand it better, but I am always intrigued with the possibility of learning new things, and that is the motivation for the questions I have been asking you.

Originally Posted by Danny

Hi Stuart,
For me, it's not a question of liking or disliking descriptions. I am only trying to learn from both you and Terry, and if you seem to be saying different things I get confused.

When I look at Terry's swimming style, it never seems as if he is rushing his recovery or throwing his arm forward. As we have noted previously, this may be in part because Terry's demo videos are always at a stroke rate of about 1.4s, which is pretty slow. What impresses me about his swimming is that, even at this slow stroke rate he swims fast because his DPS is so large. When I focus on throwing my recovery arm forward, I seem to lose DPS, sometimes so much so that my actual speed diminishes. This is probably because I am still missing something in this process, even though I have worked on it for some time. So again, I am still trying to learn.

In contrast, if I look at someone like, for example, Shelly Ripple, her swimming style seems to be a beautiful illustration of how to get good DPS by throwing your recovery arm forward. I would love to be able to swim like Shelly, but so far I don't even feel like I really understand what I should be trying to do to imitate her style. Every attempt so far fails dismally.

I would also love to be able to swim like Terry, but I must say that his technique seems to me to differ in a number of ways from Shelly's. Although I am far from swimming like Terry, I do feel that I have some understanding of what I should try to do to imitate him, which is not the case with Shelly. Terry seems deliberate and relaxed, whereas Shelly seems ballistic. I am sure that their two styles have a lot in common, as does all good swimming, but to me they represent different swimming styles.

On a personal level, I am still struggling with the question of which style I should try to imitate, or what combination of styles best suits me. So far, I gravitate towards Terry's style, because I feel like I understand it better, but I am always intrigued with the possibility of learning new things, and that is the motivation for the questions I have been asking you.

Shelly is swimming a more rotary stroke if you watch her entry her lowside arm is under or already passed her shoulder
you just gotta relax and let than one flow driven from the torso.

Shes internally rotated on the descent to catch i'll post a vid you can see at the end

v
https://youtu.be/rCga-UiIjSA

shes already on her way out when that arm comes in

Head down, posture line & balance, let those arms effect each other and they'll go where they need to go

you'll find that the lowside arm controls the high side arm recovery, litterally hooking the water and leavering the highside out and back to the front

But you gotta go with the flow not hold a glide out front