Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm?

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Originally Posted by sclim

Again, pondering what the physics would demand of us, ideally the lead arm finger tip would drift along starting from maximum velocity (from prior momentum) losing velocity gradually as the other arm recovered and finally entered (unless the kick or hip nudge started at some point), but then at the ideal moment there would be an instantaneous transformation of the lead hand and forearm spearing passively at slowly decreasing velocity into a vertical anchor holding a wall of water at zero velocity.

Yeah it's quite amazing how much grip Shinji has on the water. Also notice where his hand exits the water is roughly a yard in front of where it entered! He's moving forward 80% of his height on each stroke (in the 12 stroke video at 1.2 tempo). His low side arm moves at the same speed the body moves forward, a true or clean vault over low side arm.

The 9 stroke video I've given Shinji a hard time about. He's stroking a 1.7 tempo and lingering at the hip at exit and a slight pause at left entry. It's a great balance stroke rehearsal, cool demo - but not a true stroke count. Not a stroke he would swim at a distance at that slow tempo.

Where Shinji's stroke really comes together best is where he's swimming around 60 spm or 1.0 sec tempo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM_i5BNV4Jw His kick timing is still a touch early on the right side due to his left recovery release brushing his hip at exit triggering a slight imbalance. From an observer, coach on deck - this is his best tempo where everything clicks and is sustainable for a long distance.

We swam bridge to bridge 10k (Golden Gate to Oakland Bay Bridge) a couple years ago, Shinji was given some advice and changed is stroke to 70+spm to stay warmer in cold, choppy water (Bay temp 58 degs that day). His stroke, not graceful - looked sloppy and poppy, losing that Shinji grip - but we both finish together. I didn't know it was Shinji, nor he knew it was me until we touched the finish buoy - hilarious. My stroke rate 1.05 or 57spm which is my sweet spot long distance tempo - but I've spent more time in cold water living on the Calif coast. Shinji and I are the same height at 5' 8", but his wingspan 6'2"; my wingspan 5'10". it was a treat swimming with my coach and mentor in one of my fav swims on the planet.

Stu

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

Shinji and I are the same height at 5' 8", but his wingspan 6'2"; my wingspan 5'10".

A wingspan of 6'2" on a 5'8" body! That seems like a pretty extreme ape index.

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin

A wingspan of 6'2" on a 5'8" body! That seems like a pretty extreme ape index.

Lol, it's certainly an index. I recall when Shinji and Terry stood back to back, arms extended, Shiji's wingspan extended past Terry's and Terry was 6' tall.

[Zenturtle]

Tom, if you are interested in kicktiming and connection, study Thorpes 3 stage 2Beat kick and try to copy the 3 stages and how they connect to differnt other parts in the stroke.
Every action in the legs is to counter balance disturbtions in other places or give supporting power to further movements.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHszSCgMkpU.

I wouldnt focus on such a detailed level on Terrys or any others stroke.
Stroke detailes are driven by personal strenght and weaknesses.
Only if you have the same make up as Terry or Shinji that particular stroke will come to you naturally.
Terry has not much flexibility, and rather sinky legs. His armtiming is farther from catchuptiming as any other TI swimmer on youtube.
Shinji with his flexible body, long arms and better natural balance has a rather different style on a detail level.

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

I wouldnt focus on such a detailed level on Terrys or any others stroke.

ZT,

thanks for the thoughts (as always) and the link. I hear what you're saying.

I don't think I'm looking too closely at any one swimmer, though; the timing of the kick is consistent among all the good TI swimmers I've watched--the kick firing at about the same time the same-side (underwater) arm is passing the shoulder during the pressing motion.

That later kick timing has been a big revelation to me, and I would never have discovered it by myself without carefully analyzing TI videos. Terry, Shinji, Coach Mandy, Coach Dave Cameron--they are all doing that consistently, with slight individual variations, from what I see.

They also all appear to avoid rotation until the spearing arm has already entered the water--thus, spearing with the right arm (for example) while still on their left side. That's another aspect I am trying to match.

So, how closely swimmers match in fine details perhaps matters less than getting these essential characteristics of timing correct. That's my current focus, anyway!

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by sclim

You're right, at the moment you flagged there is a bit of downward drift of the lead arm just before the other hand enters. But I think this is an anomaly. At other times it appears that the lead hand stays perfectly still till just about the moment of other hand entry. In the slo-mo sequence 0:29 to about 0:43 there are 3 finger-tip mail-slot entries captured. In the first and third instances the lead hand does not move until the mail-slot moment, maybe even a split second after. In the second instance the lead hand fingers start to dip just a hair before the other side fingers hit the water.

You may be right, although I think I see a slight movement of the lead arm even during that first hand entry at 0:29, and during the third hand entry, at 0:43. You can see that the lead arm has dropped just a bit by the time the spearing hand is wrist-deep. But you are correct, it's a very patient lead arm with much less drifting into the catch.

However, in THIS SHINJI VIDEO the downward drift of the lead arm is quite obvious. This video was posted in 2014, but I don't know when it was shot, or if his stroke has evolved since then. Or if, indeed, the drift of the lead arm is a variable that good swimmers manipulate, rather than a constant feature of their stroke (I suspect that is the case, though).

My current tentative theory is that the amount of downward drift may be one of the factors that good swimmers consciously manipulate when they choose to change SPL--more patient lead arm = lower SPL, more downward drift = higher SR and higher SPL.

OR: Is it the other way around? Maybe less drift = lower SPL, because the propulsive phase of the pressing motion is longer in both time and distance? (Longer because the "catch" happens with the arm still farther forward, the EVF effect--early not in time, but early in the arm's backward motion). If that's the case, than more downward drift with the lead arm would lead to higher SPL, but perhaps also less perceived effort?

(I've never been able to explain to my own satisfaction HOW it is that I can choose to swim at varying SPLs, and pretty much hit my SPL target every time. I must be doing SOMETHING measurable. I wonder if this is part of the answer?)

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin

A wingspan of 6'2" on a 5'8" body! That seems like a pretty extreme ape index.

I'm pretty much the same (though slightly taller 5.87 179cm). Some see that has an advantage but it is not always from my limited experience.
While swimming on the back it is nice as I do long strokes and keep my exercion level low (at least as far as the heart rate is concerned), breathing is not an issue.
While front crawling if I follow my natural inclinaiso (the same long stroke) I run into a breathing issue, less SPL also means less breaths. I still fin it unpractical to breath every three strokes not sustainable (yet), whenever I try I shorten the "usefull" part of my stroke to up the pace and allow for more O2.
It is great in breaststroke, at that is my perception. I get lots of motion out of the limited useful part of the arm motion.
In butterfly I've other issues to cope with but I would say that an issue (sahre with back and front crawl) is that wingspam is nice but you got to move those longs segments which requires strength.

Compared to the people I see around me I would say that the stroke that benefit the most of the wing spam (for me at least) is the breaststroke.

[novaswimmer]

I can see another advantage to a long 'wingspan' and that would be when using front quadrant swimming. The extra long arms will help as a counter-weight to the legs, bringing them up -- and thereby contributing to better horizontal balance.

[Tom65]

Originally Posted by novaswimmer

I can see another advantage to a long 'wingspan' and that would be when using front quadrant swimming. The extra long arms will help as a counter-weight to the legs, bringing them up -- and thereby contributing to better horizontal balance.

If he needs to to trim up, when I became aware of possibly low legs I just lifted my kick. when swimming this morning I noticed my left foot occasionally breaking the surface so i deliberately had my right foot break the surface.

The potential problem with the above would be swimming with a lot of leg bend or a hollow back, but the following photo would imply that was good enough for Thorpe.

[fooboo]

As promised, I paid attention to kick timing during recovery phase.
Since lower arm is extended, holding the water, I see no way to throw upper
side and recover, than to use kick as support. Without a kick, there must be
lower arm anchor. I hesitate to anchor early, so kick is quite important.
Having all that in place, I am able to make vertical forearm and hold a lot of
water. Not to keep it, but to lean on it and go further.
Best regards.