Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm?

P.S there is whole stroke at 2:50 ^^^^

Hips are flat at entry every time

i might be wrong but i thought this was the whole point of gaining momentum from the highside arm?

Keeping on edge will stall that no?

"The momem arm is connected to the pelvis pulling it forward" etc etc

your not going to "ride forward on the space" during a hip transition yor going to ride forward on a flat hip rotating to down?

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

Whats happening here then Tom........ v

https://youtu.be/e24vIP-3b3w

For one thing, that video shows a drill and not actual swimming.

For another thing, it's not Shinji or Terry. :)

But yes, in that drill the rotation begins as the recovering arm is moving forward, not at all the kind of timing I am talking about.

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

P.S there is whole stroke at 2:50 ^^^^

Hips are flat at entry every time

Well, that's not really whole stroke either. It is a drill that slowly moves more toward whole stroke as he reaches the end of the pool, but doesn't really reach actual swimming speed.

But you are right that the swimmer in the video is using different timing than Shinji and Terry. His hips are indeed flat at entry. There are many different ways to swim.

My point is that TI, as exemplified by Terry and Shinji, seems to use the timing that I am talking about, where the swimmer remains on his side, WITHOUT rotating, until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water. Do you see anything to suggest I'm wrong about that?

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat

i might be wrong but i thought this was the whole point of gaining momentum from the highside arm?

Keeping on edge will stall that no?

I'm thinking of it this way: staying on your edge longer means that you preserve more potential kinetic energy from the recovering arm, so that when you do finally rotate (along with spear, kick, and pressing motion) there is more energy available. With the timing I see in Terry and Shinji's videos, you apply as much energy as you can in as short a time as possible by staying on your side longer and then rotating all at once.

And if power = work divided by time (which it does--that's basic physics), then a quicker rotation (doing the same amount of work in a shorter time) is a more powerful rotation. Thus the need to preserve more energy to use by NOT rotating early.

This is getting maybe a little too theoretical (and too speculative) to be very useful, but it's interesting to think about. (To me, anyway!) Thanks for the discussion.

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin

Well, that's not really whole stroke either. It is a drill that slowly moves more toward whole stroke as he reaches the end of the pool, but doesn't really reach actual swimming speed.

But you are right that the swimmer in the video is using different timing than Shinji and Terry. His hips are indeed flat at entry. There are many different ways to swim.

My point is that TI, as exemplified by Terry and Shinji, seems to use the timing that I am talking about, where the swimmer remains on his side, WITHOUT rotating, until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water. Do you see anything to suggest I'm wrong about that?

Yes, im not disputing the standard TI technique, i thoughtvwe were cracking the anchor & vault using momentum form the high side arm stroke a'la bill boomers video? (with a straight arm recovery) ?

I don't the full momemtum of the high side arm can be harnessed if your still on te opposite edge at entry + to get a "hook" for the vault the high side hip has to start dropping to get the lock on with rotation (in my trials anyway)

which goes back to my shaw method "opening & closing" concept.

Still maybe too much detail as you say.

[fooboo]

Body is balanced and having low drag.
Lower side extended, with hand a bit down, holding the water. Upper side
recovers, throws that side with either leading elbow or with straight arm.
Contrary leg kicks to help recovery.
When the body rotates, lower arm has oportunity to bend and gets vertical.
When completelly anchoring, swimmer "jumps" over an anchor even further.
No pull. Head should be in neutral position, sealed to armpit.
That's how I see our subject.