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  #11  
Old 02-13-2014
cpa_pfs cpa_pfs is offline
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Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Also what makes Coach Mandy's video about the 2 bk easier to understand is the fact that she is in the water. There are several voice overs and lines drawn to explain what is happening. for me that is more effective.
Agreed. Visual demonstrations with explanations of the "why" can be very beneficial.


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But after several viewing of the Cameron video, I think I am starting to understand what he is saying.
Remember I am a recent AOS ... so I offer this response with trepidation.

I really like the Dave Cameron explanation. I have watched/studied it dozens of times. I have tried to take it to the pool. I have even swam very slowly, exaggerating the move as if in slow motion. I begin by simply skating ... then very slowly coordinating the spear/catch ... then the pull. I want to understand it. I want to understand "why" I should do it that way.

What I found is that if I wait to start the pull until the pierce hand enters the water ... and enter the water about a foot behind the existing spear hand. The existing spear hand moves into the early vertical position he demonstrates. The entry of the new spear hand is my trigger to start my early vertical catch. I move the hands in unison.

I think I understand "why" this works for me. The new spear hand and the early vertical catch hand travel a similar distance ... about a foot. At that point I am streamlined with one arm and in position to push water backwards with the other. I have also started my rotation ... which seems to be almost automatic and a by-product.

I'm sure someone will want to correct me ... but this mental thought seems to work for me. The new spear and the early catch travel similar distances ... then I propel myself while continuing my rotation.

I like swimming like this. I like the short linkage of the two acts followed by focusing on one arm for propulsion. I like feeling like I stay streamlined. I like the rotation. I (now) like having a long powerful pull. I like the by-product of having more time to breathe.

Maybe I enter the water a little far. I don't feel like I do. I know that in the past I was told to enter just above my head ... but to me that lead to too long a spear and a tendency to "push down" when I start my catch. I never push down on the water now.

Bottom line. This vid has affected change in my swimming ... and I think it is positive change.

BTW, just this morning, my swim instructor (in the pool with 2 of us) told me to just keep perfecting what I am doing. He said I "had it". He spent most of his time with the other AOS.

Last edited by cpa_pfs : 02-13-2014 at 03:21 PM.
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  #12  
Old 02-13-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Tks CPA. I saw your post also in a similar thread. You said "What I found is that if I wait to start the pull until the pierce hand enters the water ... and enter the water about a foot behind the existing spear hand. The existing spear hand moves into the early vertical position he demonstrates. The entry of the new spear hand is my trigger to start my early vertical catch. I move the hands in unison. "

Going to try this out tomorrow (if it isn't too cold) to see how this works.

BTW What is AOS? I'm too old for all these acronyms!

Sherry
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  #13  
Old 02-13-2014
cpa_pfs cpa_pfs is offline
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AOS -- Adult Onset Swimmer.

I am 60 years old. Just why the hell am I trying to learn endurance swimming??? Geez. My daughter says it is because I have an addict's personality. That instead of alcohol or drugs I chose running. Hmmm. I think is right.

Now I have run almost all of the marathons I care to. So I have moved on ... to triathlons and IM.

So I am an AOS ... or I'm as dumb as a rock for trying to master swimming. Not sure which. But I am certain that if anyone ever tries to have me committed to protect me from myself ... this will be exhibit 1.

Last edited by cpa_pfs : 02-14-2014 at 01:23 PM.
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  #14  
Old 12-27-2014
Suddethb Suddethb is offline
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I started the thread this began with. Mark had many misconceptions to leave behind, including wide legs to stabilize himself. To help him with body awareness, I had to practice feeling the stroke without seeing it myself. He couldn't then feel where his body alignment was, or his hand placement. Among many tools I used was to feel his hand recovering forward, drawing his thumb along the edge of his body till it reached his head, and not starting the hand switch until it was locked in by his chin. Another was holding a lengthened body shape with one hand on the edge of the pool, feet touching each other and toes to the wall, and body fully extended to get a feel for an elongated glide position. Mark builds a visual image in his mind using touch and sound.

I do many similar techniques when teaching archery to young people. When they can touch a spot on their own face to anchor a bow string to the same spot every time, they can build consistency not just with the words they hear, or the sights they see, but with both muscle and touch memory. It helps in the repetition.
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  #15  
Old 12-28-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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I'm a +1 for starting with the push off. It's your best chance to teach the body the feeling of good balance. I would practice this until every push off was at least 5yds/metres.

I've had conversations with a number of people who tell me a long push off is almost cheating and bad for fitness.

The next most important thing is to develop the habit of counting strokes every length - always.
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  #16  
Old 12-28-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I like the in sync swimming.
Its very helpfull to swim with people who are better.
Looking at a vudeo is one thing but swimming very close to a good swimmer makes you understand what he/she is doing 100% better.
Its like a very deep instinct, copying movements from others like animals teach their babies.
I had a good swimmer overtake me with a slight speed difference and it seemed like I picked up something everytime he passed me just by looking how he moved underwater.

Building up from the basics and combining mastered drills seems the most logical path.
Well. you figured that one out yourself offcourse.
Anyways if you can video, work on one aspect at the time, exegerate the corrective action very much and video again.
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  #17  
Old 12-28-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
There is a thread titled How to teach Blind Swimmers and the thought came to me that as swimmers, we are all blind. We can't see how well or how badly we swim--we have to have an awareness of what our body is doing in order to measure how well or badly we are doing.

I am totally amazed how creative a lot of the posters are. There must be some innate ability to assess a problem and then find ways to solve it. For those of us who fly by the seat of our pants, is it possible to develop some of those skills and if so, how? I know there is a book called the talent code by Daniel Coyle--is this a good place to start?

I just passed my 70th birthday and prior to TI, I have been able to accomplish many things, but when it comes to TI swimming, flying by the seat of my pants doesn't work.

Here are a few examples: I know the face s/b looking down, arms s/b on wide tracks, head/spine alignment, patient lead arm, etc.etc. etc. The only feedback I get is when I video myself and then view video at home only to find that bad habits still exist. Focus does seem to be a problem

Does anyone else have problems with their self awareness in swimming and if so, how have you overcome them? Where did you start?

Sherry
Follow the works of Mandy McDougal, and of Shinji Takeuchi. Their dryland rehearsal approach does an excellent job at improving proprioception (your complaint basically is that you lack in this regard).

I completed 2 semesters, one in Winter 2014 and one in Autumn 2014, and I achieved great results with this approach.

I don't know where Mandy stands in regard to developing video material, but Shinji seems to have a lead there. I should have something ready (but not related to TI unfortunately) by end of Spring 2015.

http://blog.swimtrainingday.com/en/b...ut-getting-wet

One of the most difficult thing to improve (when you're stuck with this issue) is how wide you open the legs whilst 2b kicking. I am developing a product which will help people in this area.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-28-2014 at 09:17 PM.
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  #18  
Old 12-29-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Charles

Tks for your post and also the link to swimtrainingday. I have tried some of Mandy's dryland rehearsals and was amazed at how easy they looked and how difficult it was to do! While dryland rehearsals can't replace time in the water, they sure can make the time in the water more productive.

You say you are working on a product to aid in the 2bk. There are some products out there that can tell you if you are lifting your head and also a gadget that you strap around your waist to tell if you are rotating correctly. Also there are the ankle bands that I have used for the breast stroke. Will your product for the 2bk be similar to the ankle bands? Or will we have to wait and see?

Sherry
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  #19  
Old 12-29-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Unttill Charles starts selling his fancy kickcontroller, kickbuster,kicktrainer,feetcuffs,kicklimiter, kickcuffs (curious what will become the name)
you can use 2 ankle bands with an adjustable strap.(like handcuffs with adjustable chain)
The lenght of the strap limits your kick amplitude. Possibly you also can find the neccesary articles in an adult toy store.
it also solves Suzannes objections against a normal ankle band. If the strap is very short its almost a normal ankle band, but with some leg freedom.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-29-2014 at 11:00 AM.
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  #20  
Old 12-29-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Charles

Tks for your post and also the link to swimtrainingday. I have tried some of Mandy's dryland rehearsals and was amazed at how easy they looked and how difficult it was to do! While dryland rehearsals can't replace time in the water, they sure can make the time in the water more productive.

You say you are working on a product to aid in the 2bk. There are some products out there that can tell you if you are lifting your head and also a gadget that you strap around your waist to tell if you are rotating correctly. Also there are the ankle bands that I have used for the breast stroke. Will your product for the 2bk be similar to the ankle bands? Or will we have to wait and see?

Sherry
Hi Sherry, yeah dl rehearsal is well worth the investment in time. You may start by a video analysis (which is already done I think in your case), then pin point spots for improvement, then finding dryland gestures that can help you progress. Works extremely well for setting up a nice relaxed recovery, improving rotating along the long axis (without breaking it), learning to breathe (surprisingly), pull correctly (feel for the water aside of course). I even used it to "teach" how to caress the water in order to improve your feel for it. That last experiment happened to be the most compelling one. Results were astonishing!

It's evolving though, new gestures will be created as months go by. Shinji already has a serious lead as I mentioned. So you should have a look at his material.

One thing I may add. Obvious to me, but worth mentioning. I remember having had 2 severe (well, extremely severe) cases of bad proprioception. I simply teamed them up, lend them an iPad, and ask them that they alternate between being the shooter and the shootee. It was probably mentioned already, but nothing beats frequent video feedback, especially for things like crossing over, moving up and down, breaking the long axis etc....

My product is a very simple adjustable ankle band, which will simply allow for a gap between the 2 ankles. I just need to solve a minor thing, then I will start sending some samples for testing. It matches the description provided by Zenturtle. One strap for each ankle, and an adjustable strap in between. Should sell for 20$ or less.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-29-2014 at 02:58 PM.
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