Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-07-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default Where do you start?

There is a thread titled How to teach Blind Swimmers and the thought came to me that as swimmers, we are all blind. We can't see how well or how badly we swim--we have to have an awareness of what our body is doing in order to measure how well or badly we are doing.

I am totally amazed how creative a lot of the posters are. There must be some innate ability to assess a problem and then find ways to solve it. For those of us who fly by the seat of our pants, is it possible to develop some of those skills and if so, how? I know there is a book called the talent code by Daniel Coyle--is this a good place to start?

I just passed my 70th birthday and prior to TI, I have been able to accomplish many things, but when it comes to TI swimming, flying by the seat of my pants doesn't work.

Here are a few examples: I know the face s/b looking down, arms s/b on wide tracks, head/spine alignment, patient lead arm, etc.etc. etc. The only feedback I get is when I video myself and then view video at home only to find that bad habits still exist. Focus does seem to be a problem

Does anyone else have problems with their self awareness in swimming and if so, how have you overcome them? Where did you start?

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-07-2014
cpa_pfs cpa_pfs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 20
cpa_pfs
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
I video myself and then view video at home only to find that bad habits still exist.

Does anyone else have problems with their self awareness in swimming and if so, how have you overcome them? Where did you start?

Sherry
AOS here. I am a visual learner. Words get lost in the conversion. I need to "see" in order to comprehend what I learn.

So I have spent 6 months doing drills and videoing and trying to figure out swimming. I have watched lots of vids ... lots of TI vids ... I have bought and studied 3 or 4 TI DVDs. I've paid for instruction and had friends try to help me. Most have told me "just swim lots of laps and it will come to you". I have resisted that advice.

I also agree that learning bad habits and reinforcing them through lap after lap is illogical. I don't buy that. I see swimmers with horrible form struggling and they have done that for years.

Recently, a marathoner I know signed up for an Ironman. In Nov he swam next to us. He couldn't get 10M without having to stand. Terrible form. Another runner worked with him. Last month, I swam next to him. Unbelievable. He outswam most in the pool. 2 months ... and he is turning into a fish.

So I spoke with his friend who was helping him. I have had instructors before, but it just didn't work. This guy ... I swam, he would swim right next to me. Then another buddy video'd us swimming side by side. We studied the vid and the differences. We are both analytical personalities. I have to see & understand in order to do ... and he does too. So suddenly, I had someone explain in a fashion that I simply "got".

A mere 2 sessions and I understood. Now I swim. Huge improvement. Yesterday I swam lap after lap fairly easily ... whereas 2 weeks ago I floundered for 25M and had to take a rest. I no longer fight the water. I swim on top of it and my pull is no longer pushing the water down ... it is propelling me forward.

The key for me was to video and study ... us swimming side by side. I learned so much. I froze the screen and could see the stark differences in when we pulled, how we pulled, rotation ... everything.

You know how you learn the best. Do that. If an instructor doesn't work for you ... keep searching. Learn good form from the start so that you don't ingrain bad ones and have to unlearn them.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-07-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,104
WFEGb
Default

Hello Sherry,

Quote:
...Does anyone else have problems with their self awareness in swimming and if so, how have you overcome them? Where did you start?
...
Yes, know it very well. For me it's the things where the best feeling is to feel nothing. My examples:

- Spearhand falling from mailslot to catch position. Think ideal will be if you feel "nothing". No drag on forehand, no drag on palm or lower arm no need to pull. Catch position reached without any effort.

- Charles once voted for a strong push off from wall, because we might get a feeling how fast swimmers feel always. I do like this feeling very much! But better will be to feel nearly nothing, because than you should be in perfect streamline.

- Spine-leg-alignment - the kick. Grrmpfh. If you feel the water striving parts of your front legs, you broke your streamline. We should feel "nothing" when kicking in and with streamline.

Well, all somewhat exaggerated, but as a noncoach it might not be bad striving for "feeling nothing" there.

Best regards,
Werner
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-07-2014
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 76
Ron Bear
Default

Sherry,
I have the same problem you are noticing. I know where things should be, but I am not necessarily aware when they are wrong. I have drills that reliably find and fix those things that happen but that I canít seem to detect :

Wide Tracks- As I get tired and lazy my tracks tend to narrow, but I canít really tell that they are doing that. So how do I even know that happens? In closed fist drill I go very slowly unless I have nice wide tracks. I get good purchase on the water with closed fist ONLY when my hands are away from my body. So I will actually close my fists for a few strokes even in the middle of a race and that puts my hands back in position.

Head Looking Down- This is easy in the pool, but hard in open water. Take the center of the lane and just glue your eyes to the black line. Your whole body will just rotate around your head.
Spine Align- Quit kicking. When your feet arenít constantly moving, you can feel when water moves on your feet. If your spine isnít aligned you can feel if your feet drift out of your slip stream on one side or the other.

One you didnít mention but that I drill every pool session is making sure I have high elbow on catch. Bring your catch to your nose instead of out in open water. (While sitting at your computer reach one arm straight up. Now touch your nose. See why that works?) When I am catching well this drill slows me down. When I am catching poorly it actually speeds me up.

All four of these drills allow me to fix errors which could be caught on video but which I canít see for myself real time. I can detect them (with the drill), just not see them.

Ron
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-07-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default

Ron, can you clarify the following?

One you didnít mention but that I drill every pool session is making sure I have high elbow on catch. Bring your catch to your nose instead of out in open water. (While sitting at your computer reach one arm straight up. Now touch your nose. See why that works?) When I am catching well this drill slows me down. When I am catching poorly it actually speeds me up.

Don't understand the slowing down or speeding up part. Also, what is it that is working?

Tried your exercise and I do admit that the shoulder doesn't feel pinched. but by bringing your hand to your nose, wouldn't that violate the wide tracks focus point as you pull?

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-10-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default Ron Bear--Need Clarification Please

Ron

Didn't quite understand the following--you said "One you didnít mention but that I drill every pool session is making sure I have high elbow on catch. Bring your catch to your nose instead of out in open water. (While sitting at your computer reach one arm straight up. Now touch your nose. See why that works?) When I am catching well this drill slows me down. When I am catching poorly it actually speeds me up."

Tried your exercise but not sure what it is demonstrating and why is it good that it slows you down?

Sherry
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-10-2014
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 604
CoachDavidShen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
"One you didnít mention but that I drill every pool session is making sure I have high elbow on catch. Bring your catch to your nose instead of out in open water. (While sitting at your computer reach one arm straight up. Now touch your nose. See why that works?)
i'd watch out for creating the habit of touching the nose. if you enter the water with your hand ahead of your head versus out to the side, you will have a wavering entry that needs to spear back out from the centerline and it is not optimal for speed or for the shoulder. it is better to enter to the side of the head, out wider than bringing your hand to the centerline where your nose is...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-12-2014
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 76
Ron Bear
Default

First I apologize for posting and then not checking the thread for five days.

The very most important thing to point out about this touch the nose trick is that it is a drill. Drills improve some aspect of your swimming while letting something else be really not right. So as you and David both point out, your hands are not wide if you are touching your nose.

The GOOD part of the drill is that touching your nose (I usually just bring my hand in front of my face rather than actually touching) is a bending of the arm (catch) with no lowering of the elbow. So it is a drill to enforce high elbow during catch.

How could that speed me up? Well it is a perfect catch. You grab this giant armful of water and shove it straight backwards with your arm bent at 90 degrees and your forearm and upper arm in perfect position to actually hold onto all of that water instead of just uselessly swooshing your arm through the water with no purchase. This is brute force though and wears you out faster than if you rely on your hips to drive you.

The slowdown is what SHOULD happen (and usually does). Sure it is a high elbow catch. But if I already had a good high elbow AND wide tracks, but now I only have a high elbow then regular swimming is faster than the drill. The reason I say that it is good that I slow down is that in the other case I realize that my catch must have devolved to an utter disaster.

Hopefully that makes sense now.
Ron
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-12-2014
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 604
CoachDavidShen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Bear View Post
First I apologize for posting and then not checking the thread for five days.

The very most important thing to point out about this touch the nose trick is that it is a drill. Drills improve some aspect of your swimming while letting something else be really not right. So as you and David both point out, your hands are not wide if you are touching your nose.

The GOOD part of the drill is that touching your nose (I usually just bring my hand in front of my face rather than actually touching) is a bending of the arm (catch) with no lowering of the elbow. So it is a drill to enforce high elbow during catch.

How could that speed me up? Well it is a perfect catch. You grab this giant armful of water and shove it straight backwards with your arm bent at 90 degrees and your forearm and upper arm in perfect position to actually hold onto all of that water instead of just uselessly swooshing your arm through the water with no purchase. This is brute force though and wears you out faster than if you rely on your hips to drive you.

The slowdown is what SHOULD happen (and usually does). Sure it is a high elbow catch. But if I already had a good high elbow AND wide tracks, but now I only have a high elbow then regular swimming is faster than the drill. The reason I say that it is good that I slow down is that in the other case I realize that my catch must have devolved to an utter disaster.

Hopefully that makes sense now.
Ron
hey ron_bear,

i misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were entering the water at your nose but you meant after you spear and you catch to the nose.

it is not bad as a drill to start imprinting an EVF. however, you should work the hip drive to create the EVF, versus sweeping to your face only, which can be independent of the hip drive and other body motion. if you work it with the hip drive, it will also make the catch easier since your body will be rotated.

study Coach Dave Cameron's video and try to work this into your swimming:

http://youtu.be/tDmQiHQ8mW8

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-13-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 671
jenson1a
Default

Coach Dave

I have seen this video several times and like some others, have had a hard time understanding what Dave Cameron is saying. For instance he talks about an elbow hinge at 1:32 in the video. don't know if this was in a previous video or what. Also what makes Coach Mandy's video about the 2 bk easier to understand is the fact that she is in the water. There are several voice overs and lines drawn to explain what is happening. for me that is more effective.

But after several viewing of the Cameron video, I think I am starting to understand what he is saying. He does offer a lot of info and I have been doing a lot of pauses and backing up the video to replay some sections.

Ron Bear

Thanks for replying. I tried your dryland exercise and realize that you are also demonstrating the ourward swing of the arm. It also helped me realize that I have been overdoing the hinging of the arm and probably in swimming, the elbow is behind my back. By doing what you suggest, I feel no pain in my shoulder, so thanks for that.


Sherry
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.