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  #11  
Old 09-22-2012
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachGaryF View Post

One other point: I'm a bit concerned that you "peter out" at a 1:30 tempo, which is pretty light. How do you manage your breathing? One breath every two strokes? Every 3rd? Less frequently than that? Here's why:
At a 1.3 tempo breathing every two strokes you get to breathe 23 times per minute (one breath every 2.6 seconds.) At a 1.3 tempo breathing every three strokes you get to breathe about 15 times per minute (one breath every 3.9 seconds.) That's not a lot of air. CPR used to call for 12 breaths per minute just to make sure the guy on the floor doesn't turn into a corpse. 15 breaths/minute is not enough air to sustain aerobic activity. Unless you count eating breakfast as an aerobic activity (I give myself 10 minutes of daily aerobic training credit for eating breakfast--haha!)

Gary
This may be a little off the subject, but what you are saying about 15 breaths/ minute not enoough to sustain aerobic activity, then that probably explains why so many who drill at an extremely low stroke rate (1.4 or more) are breathless after 1 0r 2 lengths--especially if they breathe only every 3rd or more stroke. I typically take a breath every 4 strokes (sometimes 5) and have trouble completing 4 lengths. (TT at 1.65, 1.55, 1.45). Am I overlooking something in your post Gary?

Sherry
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  #12  
Old 09-24-2012
Josefish Josefish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
We'd love to help you...but can you explain in your definition what keeping with TI vs. conventional swim training would mean?

I can assure you, as can many others on this forum, that the 'secret' to getting faster is within everyone's grasp using TI and the training methods we teach...it's fundamental and based in solid science (physics, fluid dynamics, anatomy) as well as being a philosophy
Dear Suzanne,

What I meant by "to keep with TI or change to conventional swimming trainning" is to keep with the TI method, drills and phlosofy (where I find myself in a "plateau" ) or just start tainning conventional swimming ( paddles, pulls, kicking and all that stuff)
I Did a TI workshop last january and have been practicing TI drills and swimming for 8 months, there is a point in which I don't avance anymore...Im stuck...That's why I am doubtfull about to change to traditional swimming trainning ( pull buoy, pulls, kicking....) or stay with TI
Thank you
Jose
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  #13  
Old 09-24-2012
smat smat is offline
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Josefish, i have posted on this blog before and we are almost identical in times and emotion to TI. I have taken a 2 week break from swimming all together after 100s of hours TI drills. I am also not sure what path to next take.
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  #14  
Old 09-24-2012
CoachGaryF CoachGaryF is offline
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To Jose and Smat,
I completely understand your frustration in hitting a plateau. I don't think that means you abandon smart swimming with explicit focal points. That's the main difference I see in people who train with TI principles and those who simply turn their brains off and go hard. Going hard seems to get you pretty far in running and cycling. Swimming is much more complicated, and thoughtless or unexamined hard work doesn't typically pay off like it does in those other sports.
Perhaps you are stuck because you've been doing lots of drills and easy swimming. What can you tell us about how you structure your pool time? What percentage of your time is spent on drills versus whole stroke swimming? If you use a Tempo Trainer, what are your high and low end tempos, and how much of your swimming is performed at them? How do you measure improvement--by lower SPL, by faster times, by swimming farther? Can you give us an example of a specific goal you have and your strategy for achieving it?
At some point you have to swim/train. And that can and should mean hard work. Bill Boomer, one of the seminal influences on Terry and TI, was leading a four-day coaches retreat I attended through USA Swimming many years ago. His focus was exclusively on things like alignment and balance. After about three days I could sense some of the traditional coaches getting frustrated that we weren't talking about yardage, threshold swimming, etc. Finally someone asked Bill, "How are we ever going to actually race if all we do is spend time on this stuff?" His response: "I never said you didn't have to work hard." His objective was not to cover everything we as coaches needed to give our athletes to be successful. But he thought it important to take the time to get first principles right. That's what we do through TI workshops and most of our support materials: address the underlying principles that permit efficient swimming. But that's not the whole story. There are ways to train long and hard workouts (6000 meters) while employing a TI mindset. Terry can probably answer this best, but I don't think he spends any time doing drills these days, and it would not be unusual for him to do 5 x 500 swims as a portion of one practice. With a little more feedback on WHAT the two of you are currently doing I think we (TI coaches on this forum) can offer more targeted assistance.

Gary
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  #15  
Old 09-24-2012
Josefish Josefish is offline
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Dear Gary,

Thanks for your comments.
My work out is simple:
After my TI workshop last January I used to go to the swimming pool about 4/5 times per week about 2.000 metres, 1.000 TI drill and 1.000 swimming.
Afterwards I did The TI olympic and long distance triathlon Plan from Brian Vande krol.
I do about 18/20 spl and my time in 1500 metres is 32/33 minutes, my objective has been so far to make 1.500 under 30 minutes, but no way.....

Your comments will be appreciated
Than you
Jose
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  #16  
Old 09-24-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josefish View Post
Dear Gary,

Thanks for your comments.
My work out is simple:
After my TI workshop last January I used to go to the swimming pool about 4/5 times per week about 2.000 metres, 1.000 TI drill and 1.000 swimming.
Afterwards I did The TI olympic and long distance triathlon Plan from Brian Vande krol.
I do about 18/20 spl and my time in 1500 metres is 32/33 minutes, my objective has been so far to make 1.500 under 30 minutes, but no way.....

Your comments will be appreciated
Than you
Jose
Jose,

My suggestion would be to first do some assessment sets so you can give some data to the coaches.

Try this:-

1500m data set

TT@ 1.4

4x25,3x50,2x75,1x100. Try to hold the same SPL and be strict on number of beeps per turn and push off. Allow 45 seconds per length which will give you about 15seconds rest on the 25's and a minute on the 100 given the 1500m time you posted.

Report back how easy it felt, if you managed to swim the whole set within those rest parameters and also if you managed to hold a consistent SPL count for the whole set.

Then repeat the same with TT@1.3 and TT@1.2

2nd set descending 25's

swim 2x25m starting with TT@1.3 and record SPL and times
after each 2x25 click your TT down 1 beep and repeat the exercise until you reach the limit of your technical ability to hold with the tempo trainer.

Again keep all the push offs and turn on a strict no of beeps cycle regardless of tempo setting.

Also report any general observations you get from this. e.g. tt1.14 I felt most balanced and relaxed or similar.

ditto SMAT if you want to give it a try.
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  #17  
Old 09-24-2012
CoachGaryF CoachGaryF is offline
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Sherry,
Breathing once every 4 strokes at the tempos you described means a breath every 6 to 7 seconds. Now you're down to 9 or 10 breaths a minute. I think that has a lot to do with why you can't keeping going. Fuel spent versus fuel taken in are at stark odds with each other. Even at a fairly low heart rate.
Gary
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  #18  
Old 09-24-2012
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Hi Gary

If you need to take at least 21 to 45 breaths per minute, then where is the benefit in practicing at a slow stroke rate if it causes you to get out of breath?

This a.m. I set my TT at 1.3 (never swam at that rate before) but today was the first time I didn't belch up air. My spl went up to 20, but at least I was able to swim 4 or 5 lenghts without gasping.

Now I am confused how i should proceed. Should I continue at the 1.3 and just try to lower my spl? Or should I just do short repeats at a slower rate?

Sherry
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  #19  
Old 09-24-2012
CoachGaryF CoachGaryF is offline
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Sherry,
I can swim comfortably for about as long as I like at a 1.4 tempo, mostly because I am able to swim a modest speeds and very low heart rate. You will also find great value in swimming at slow-ish tempos, because you'll have time to dissect your movements. You may not be able to swim forever at that tempo, but that's not all that important in the short run. Nothing wrong with stacking up a bunch of 50s or 100s at slower tempos/lower rate or respiration if it allows you to polish up your skills.

And don't be fooled by SPL as being the end all be all. An SPL of 20 isn't "bad" or "good." It's what you currently have. Depending on our height, distance of your push-offs, etc it may be a perfectly decent and efficient number for you. I swim 25 yards consistently in the 11-13 range, but I have a decent push off (6-7 yards) and do flip turns. Truth is I probably get fewer than 23 breaths when I factor in the turns (because I'm not doing a minute of straight swimming; each minute probably includes at least 2 turns and closer to 3.)

I don't know why you wouldn't try tempos of 1:25, 1:20, 1:15, etc. Your stroke count WILL go up, but so what? It's expected to do that as tempo increases. My functional stroke count range (from loafing to sprinting) is 11-18 strokes per 25 yards. You will have a similar stroke count range, with an appropriate count for each tempo. Give yourself a break and back off on the stroke counting agenda if it's preventing you from experimenting with other aspects of your swimming. Not belching up air sounds like a win to me!
Gary
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  #20  
Old 09-24-2012
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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tks for the advice. I will try it out tomorrow morning. Gives me something to shoot for.

Sherry
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