Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants

"Sam" in the bill boomer video is actually doing pretty much the same

Sams arm is on its way out when the high side enters v

https://youtu.be/e24vIP-3b3w

[fooboo]

Terry's body shape is different than mine. I swim quite differently than he did.
I use lower part of the body patiently and wait with extended leading arm.
An anchor is the point of dispute. I wait and hold the water with hand set down.
Just that. When body rolls opposite, with recovery arm in the water long time,
I get a catch - anchor. Is it too late? No, not for me. Only then it works for me.
Anchor should not be without a power. It moves the whole body over that
point. It is not for me push, pull or else. It is jump over that arm.
Best regards all.

[IngeA]

Originally Posted by Danny

I would also love to be able to swim like Terry, but I must say that his technique seems to me to differ in a number of ways from Shelly's. Although I am far from swimming like Terry, I do feel that I have some understanding of what I should try to do to imitate him, which is not the case with Shelly. Terry seems deliberate and relaxed, whereas Shelly seems ballistic. I am sure that their two styles have a lot in common, as does all good swimming, but to me they represent different swimming styles.

On a personal level, I am still struggling with the question of which style I should try to imitate, or what combination of styles best suits me. So far, I gravitate towards Terry's style, because I feel like I understand it better, but I am always intrigued with the possibility of learning new things, and that is the motivation for the questions I have been asking you.

you will always find that two people who are learning a skill equally are not really doing it completely the same. Every one has a different body, special abilities and qualities and his own predilections. So you only can take advices, do drills, play with different timings, slow and fast recovery, elbow a bit more straight or a bit more bent, entering the water a bit earlier or a bit later....

You can copy a style only to a certain degree, because the person you copy from has adapted the style to his own needs. At some point you will have to find the style that fits you best, not another.

And that's also a cause why different people tell you slightly different things about the same skill and even the same style. At first, every one uses a different language to express himself. I myself when coaching (in other sports) like to use pictures. Maybe that's because I manly coach children. And it's more difficult to explain and find the best technique for somebody with conditions you don't have yourself. It take time and I'm advancing in explaining, because I see the problems big and havier athletes have. But that is something I observe in the other athletes, not in my own body.

In my main sport Ving Tsun my coach at home also has a slightly different style than HIS coach in the USA. But if you see them in action you will see at once, that their styles are founded on the same ideas.
But nonetheless their explanations and ideas are sometimes different in small details.
If I (or any other coach I know) explain something to a less advanced student, my explanations also sometimes differ slightly (and my style also). Sometimes that is confusing, sometimes that helps.

I've learnt to hear and try all I have heart and then pick the style that fits me best and then adapt this to my needs.
I am female, small, chunky and nimble. My style can never be the same as the style of a big, muscular and rather slow male. My advantage is my speed, so I should use it. I can't use my body mass against most males.

So if you do not see at all how you could adapt your style in direction to Shelly's fast recovery, I think that perhaps this is just not the style that fits to you.

Best regards Inge

[Zenturtle]

I agree with mushroomfloat, but the low side connection to the ballistic high side weight flying over is not only the low side anchor connected to the low side shoulder, but also to the legs.
The legs anchor to add the twist from back to front making a torsional whip through the torso to the front. Hips proceed shoulders in this rotational twist.
This adds to the power that can be delivered to the overflying weight of the arm. And adds pressure to the anchoring points at the same time.
Every action has a reaction point.
Just throwing the weight forward without properly placed foundations has no use.
You can have the anchor reaction point totally at shoulder height and relax the connection to the legs, but then you will bend and fishtail through the water.
First step from that stage is to keep the body straight to prevent that. Like a needle following the upperbody actions.Like a rigid back end from a canoe.
Next is to anchor the legs and add rotational twisting power to the stroke.
This gives the slight twist and possibly some undulation to the stroke.

I agree there can be differnt styles. when the strokerate is low the dynamic forces to move the weights of the body change dramatically. Certainly if you want to use the inertia of the moving weights of bopy(parts) in an effective way in your stroke.
In that sense its pretty useless to compare a 40 stroke/min stroke to a 80 stroke per minute stroke.
We are talking about a whole different set of forces in the stroke, or in other words a differnt stroke almost.
Even small changes in your stroke may feel enormous for the swimmer. When an outside observer only sees a minor change.
How to compare the feelings of a stroke that already looks totally differnt from the outside?

If you dont know how the other person swims and how that compares to your swimming, be carefull to interpret his descriptions. They may be useless for your swimming style.
This complicates the discussions we having over right and wrong. personal tips etc.

[Zenturtle]

mushroomfloat, you might find the finding freestyle drills interesting

https://www.youtube.com/user/soulswimmer9/videos

its about the basic 2 swimming styles,
-float and paddle style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvKBIJqY94w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9emyWcqrLXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eXWjtryVO8 next stage with one leg added.

- statue of liberty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O3p0BuyPcA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJt7OcueRy8
everybody has to find his her optimal mix between these 2.

I dont agree with their description of twisting of the torso. What they show is bending and twisting of the torso combined.
They dont differentiate different movements very well.

There are 3 movements the torso can make:
Twisting
bending
undulating.
So enough to play with ha ha

TI is very much at the statue of liberty end of the spectrum, but with a 2BK.

[Zenturtle]

Danny.
Mel has a quicker catch than Shelly with more weight on top of it.
Mel starts pulling earlier that shelley, who has a sort of patient catch. Shelly is more TI like in her stroke.
She first extends, brings the arm in in an optimal catch position and then increases pressure. She does not have less purchase, she just waites to come to the right time, being economical with here forces.
Mel uses pressure almost right away.
This is not so good for balance. Pushing water down at the front without a weight on top of it (by a recovering arm ) neeeds more pushing water down at the rear (kick) to keep the body balanced.
Mel is kicking more with lower legs.

Dont like Mels kicking style. Shelleys rear end looks much more aquatic.
More evolved toward fish at the rear. more from the center. less from the knee.

This is a great thread.

For me, it is all about the visualisation of certain things. I really get the "throwing the recovery arm forward". I also get the beach ball analogy and holding/feeling the ball of water and use them at different times for different challenges.

If i need a rest, I focus completely on a relaxed recovery arm for a length or two.

The one thing I can't get into my visualisation bank is the anchor and vault. I don't know why. I can understand how it would work, and how it would be a great focus for most people, but when I try it in the pool it just doesn't happen for me.

A new one that I picked up here is the lengthening of the non-kicking leg, same side as the spear. That works brilliantly.

[Zenturtle]

You can ly on the floor front down, support one side on the elbow. try to shove your body forward over the floor over that supporting elbow.
Your vaulting over that support point now.
Crawling forward.
you will see you have to keep your body a bit rigid and use other body parts to make it easier.
just pulling your elbow to the rear with a spaghetty dead corp pulled over the flloor is hard work for the shoulder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-TEuNWmrWA

this , but without a human leg motion, only fishlike kicking motions allowed at the rear.
And throw the high side arm over like in swimming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlR_AOioglw looks like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjVDftnBq04 = phelps vaulting over his left arm But without the additional support of the right arm that the baby uses. That weight is used to throw over the vaulting point. Sinking and pressing on the vaulting point at the same time.

Thanks for the visuals Z.

I'll give that a go.