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  #1  
Old 12-30-2015
truwani truwani is offline
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truwani
Default exact timing recov hipswitch kick

Recently I came aware of the importance of correct timing and aligning recovery, switch with your hip and moment of two beat kick. I think, propulsion wise, even small improvements here add greatly to propulsion and reduce 'banana way' of moving through water like a snake would.


Focussing on this, I would like to know the exact order of these three elements and moments of passing from one to another

So put me to the next level on this please. I think it is the following, but feel very free to correct: through the cycle keep 1 arm in front of shoulder and

1) recover other arm loosely over water, making sure the hand does not go past your shoulder, untill hand enters water

2) switch your hip the moment the hand enters the water (thus high part of hip is driven down, low part comes up), continue recovery and rotate

3) here I am (very) confused: do you kick at same time you drive the hip? Are do you still wait and only kick when your are stretched at the end of the rotation?

In part 3) the second option seems the most difficult one in my personnal experience with this: you have to be VERY patient and able to split all these actions and connect them nicely together

Any drills to help here are greatly appreciated

Please feel free to give any feedback: I want to learn from this and get better
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  #2  
Old 12-31-2015
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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The function of the kick in a 2BK is to counterbalance the rotation of your core body. So your kick should be synchronized with the driving of your hip.


Bob
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  #3  
Old 01-02-2016
truwani truwani is offline
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Thanks coach Bob

Looks like I might overcomplexify the point, I will test today in the pool!
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  #4  
Old 01-02-2016
tony0000 tony0000 is offline
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I don't think it's helpful to break continuous movements into micro-moverments. There is no way you are going to be able to co-ordinate your body parts thinking of them as separate motions, one tenth of a second apart. Swimming is not like playing the piano. Rather, I suggest your think of your body movements in functional terms. When do I kick to generate propulsion and to keep my body aligned? When do I rotate my shoulders to aid in the pull of my arm? When do my hips turn to co-ordinate with my shoulders? How do I move all the parts to maximize the distance per stroke, etc. In other words, you have to get the feel of the stroke and let your body figure out the precise timing of the movements.

(BTW, I've never liked the idea of "hip drive" since there is no hip muscle to activate.)

Good luck,

Tony

"Swim by the mile; improve by the inch."
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  #5  
Old 01-02-2016
truwani truwani is offline
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Thanks for the feedback Tony

I am an adult swimmer who never had freestyle lessons as a child, just breast stroke in junior school...

So for me personally I do not believe in letting my body tell me how to do it because my body seems very incapable of telling me. The way I try to improve is indeed breaking like an engineer the problem down in many peaces, solving the peaces and then glueing them together. Keeping hold of several indicators I keep track of my performance and I see clear improvements

But I can fully imagine that for other people progress is possible through mere sensing of the body what it needs to do.

I think it is important that everyone finds something that works for himself

Cheers
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  #6  
Old 01-03-2016
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony0000 View Post
I don't think it's helpful to break continuous movements into micro-moverments. There is no way you are going to be able to co-ordinate your body parts thinking of them as separate motions, one tenth of a second apart. Swimming is not like playing the piano.
....

(BTW, I've never liked the idea of "hip drive" since there is no hip muscle to activate.)
Hi Tony,

I disagree, almost entirely - but I understand the spirit of your response.

Freestyle is a complex set of movements, and it's very important to break it down to smaller manageable parts, TI characterizes as mini-skills (not micro-movements). Mini-skills are attainable and nearly mastered by most any swimmer, adult onset or those with years in the water. Those mini-skills are then integrated into whole stroke and supported or reinforced using specific focal points. This really is much like playing the piano (or any instrument), rehearsing a set of notes and sequence, or a dance mastering a single movement then integrating into the whole. This in itself reduces the complexity of the whole, too many fall victim working on all movements at once, or multitasking.

Hip drive is a rather allusive term or feeling - agreed, but it's those rehearsals that make is not so subtle and much more connected. Timing the entire stroke from the core (hips/pelvis) really simplifies the movements.

An excellent set of focal points (gems from Terry) swimming freestyle that connect the core that I frequently use - kind of a head to toes connection, Using a single focal on each 50 or 100 in progression.

1. Neutral head (no tension in the neck)
2. Patient lead hand, or better "trade hands" holding long clean edge
3. Feel weight of recovery arm pulling high hip down on recovery entry.
4. Use high hip to drive or finish recovery to forward extension
5. Toe flick (down) finish connecting to high hip through rotation.

You don't have to use hip drive since the hip connection will happen organically using 1,2,3 and 5 above.

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 01-03-2016 at 12:14 AM.
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  #7  
Old 01-03-2016
tony0000 tony0000 is offline
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Stuart,

Perhaps I expressed my point poorly. I was not comparing learning to play the piano with learning to swim. (I have no problems with mini-drills.) I was comparing the act of playing with the act of swimming (with apologies to pianists if I have not accurately described the phenomenology of playing). Piano notation provides precise instructions regarding how a piece of music is to be placed: exactly what finger movements to make and how quickly to make them. Playing the piece involves following the directions sequentially as they are presented--being guided by precise instructions. Swimming in not like that. A swimmer should not be thinking, "Now my hand is passing my ear, and so that means I should start to bend my opposite knee for half a second, and now straightened my leg as my hand enters the water, holding that position for a second . . . . " Nor is it helpful to think one's forearm should move from 180 to 150 to 120 to 90 degrees every tenth of a second. It's all well and good to say that the leg kicks at about the time the opposing arm spears, but more precise statement is not helpful because the swimmer is in no position to operationalize very precise instructions regarding position and timing. Thus I recommend instructions be given in terms that the swimmer can actually use, like "keep your head relaxed," and "push water backwards, not down," and "kick to a depth sufficient to keep your hips up," and let the swimmer try to feel how to achieve those. I think the instructions you provided were along those lines.

Tony

"Swim by the mile; improve by the inch."
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