Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-23-2015
tony0000 tony0000 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 124
tony0000
Default Should TI Be Taught to a Younger Beginning Swimmer?

I am teaching a fit 30-year-old friend to swim. When it comes to the crawl, should I teach her TI or the standard crawl?

This is where I am coming from. When I was in my 30s, I could swim the standard crawl for a sustained period. Now, in my late 50s, I no longer can. I can’t maintain my heart rate at the level that I used to; my form deteriorates after a couple of laps. Thus, for the last few years, I’ve been happily swimming the TI variation of the crawl. I find it to be a more efficient (and enjoyable) way to move through the water. My cruising speed, while giving me an excellent workout, doesn’t overwhelm my cardio-vascular system.

So, to return to my original question, what do you think about teaching TI versus the standard crawl to a beginning swimmer whose cardio-vascular system can presumably handle the standard crawl? For example, which is the easier stroke for a (adult) beginner to master? (One option would be to let her choose, but my sense is she’s largely relying on my advice. Other option would be to teach her both simultaneously, but I'm afraid that would be confusing.)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Tony

“Swim by the mile; improve by the inch.”
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-23-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

What makes the standard crawl so much more exhausting in your opinion?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-23-2015
tony0000 tony0000 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 124
tony0000
Default

The 6-beat kick and the constant movements of both arms.

But that's a full answer because, I suppose, one could just do a 6-beat kick slowly and move one's arm slowly. My sense is that slow movement of that type would significantly decrease my speed through the water (intrinsically undesirable) and I'd lose hydrodynamic effects like a pocket being created to breathe.

This is one way of saying what I think most of us here believe: TI is a more efficient way to swim, and so puts less stress on one's cardio-vascular system.

Tony

Last edited by tony0000 : 12-23-2015 at 11:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-23-2015
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 647
CoachBobM
Default

I don't know of any reason why you shouldn't teach the TI approach to any/every swimmer.


Bob
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-23-2015
tony0000 tony0000 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 124
tony0000
Default

Bob,

To state the question more precisely then, should TI be taught *first*? (As I mentioned, I think teaching the standard crawl and TI simultaneously would be confusing. Am I mistaken about this?)

Tony

"Swim by the mile; improve by the inch."
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-23-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

its a strange question posted from a TI swimmer on a TI forum.
You know I have some objections against a certain TI style.(thread: a swimming background?)
If someone is swimming TI in a coach Dikla style, I think swimming faster than 1.30-1.50 min/100m becomes more exhausting in that style compared to a well executed standard crawl style.
Swimming at a pace slower than 1.50/100m could me more efficient even in Coach Dikla style.
For a TI style which I like, say Shinji style, the point of deminishing returns lies at a higher speed. Maybe 1.30 min/100m. Maybe at a higher speed?
Although there is very little to complain about Shinjis stroke, somewhere upward in the speed range you dont want too much zero propulsion time.
So what is Shinjis non propulsive time above 1.30min/100m pace? How much difference is there in his max-min speed above 1.30min/100m pace?
Accelerating/decelerating when the drag increases to ever higher levels starts to hurt efficiency eventually, even if you are a very good balanced streamliner.
Thats my personal opinion.

From that perspective, the answer depends on the pace your swimmer wants to swim and what style you teach her.
I have tried to find out what clearly visable TI caracteristics are left for (very) fast swimmers and didnt get a clear answer.
Basic (TI) principles like streamline, balance and whole body propulsion can always be applied without negative side effects, but all good coaches say that they already teach these things.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-23-2015 at 11:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-23-2015
tony0000 tony0000 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 124
tony0000
Default

ZT,

I don't believe it's a strange question for this forum. I think it's fair to ask if TI makes sense for everyone. It makes sense for me (given my abilities and goals). But how about for younger, beginning swimmers, or even (very) young swimmers who have different levels of coordination and different CV capacity?

But you are right that what stroke you should learn depends on what your goals are. I think that the goal of most beginners is to be able to feel comfortable in the water when swimming, to not run out of breath, to do a few laps.

My assumption is that the coaches here do not teach only TI, but teach the the standard crawl as well. When they teach a beginning swimmer in their 30s, do they teach TI?

Tony

"Swim by the mile; improve by the inch."
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-24-2015
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony0000 View Post
The 6-beat kick and the constant movements of both arms.

But that's a full answer because, I suppose, one could just do a 6-beat kick slowly and move one's arm slowly. My sense is that slow movement of that type would significantly decrease my speed through the water (intrinsically undesirable) and I'd lose hydrodynamic effects like a pocket being created to breathe.

This is one way of saying what I think most of us here believe: TI is a more efficient way to swim, and so puts less stress on one's cardio-vascular system.

Tony
Hi Tony,

I am a little confused by what you mean by "normal crawl". 6BK is something I understand. By "continuous movement of both arms" do you mean less "catch-up"?

An old book I have by James Councilman says that he makes a point of not advocating a particular kicking style because each swimmer he has worked with fell into a particular pattern on their own, and there are world record holders using all of these styles. So maybe it is easiest to leave the kicking choice up to your student. That said, being able to do both 6BK and 2BK is an advantage if you are a serious swimmer, and learning this is a little like learning alternative breathing. The earlier you start, the easier it is to learn.

As far as catch-up is concerned, I don't think that this is an issue that most beginners need to spend too much time worrying about. TIs priorities are balance first and streamlining second. Most beginners stroke too fast as a way to compensate for bad balance, and using catch-up is a way to break this habit. So using catch-up as a drill might help, but that shoulld be judged on the basis of what problems the student has.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-24-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachBobM View Post
I don't know of any reason why you shouldn't teach the TI approach to any/every swimmer.


Bob
I have to agree with this sentiment, although maybe my experience and knowledge base is merely that of a poor swimmer learning better technique in his old age, and finding it amazingly more difficult and more technique driven than I would have thought. But I'm still committed to the long term process, and I intend to improve, even if slowly.

There are those who ridicule the results of TI, and the standard caricatures would be the long slow strokers with a long glide (even in a race situation), and perhaps not even a particular good grasp of the fundamental first step, balance, let alone the second, streamline. However, these individuals are still struggling with the TI process (and may never stop struggling, even though the TI mantra says don't struggle). Consider how their swimming would look now if you had just thrown the usual free style swimming learning process at them. But I don't see any reason why you cannot get good in the TI framework, and then get fast, still utilising the TI basics.

In my limited world view, the strong 30 year old with power to spare would still benefit from the discipline that TI imposes on the thoughtful practitioner. If he/she were to grasp early the concept of balance first, streamlining, second and propulsion third, with the intuitive "feel" of the water being acquired somewhere along the line without TI, more power to them, but I think the TI process covers that, and is some insurance against missing some of that important information along the way.

So I certainly don't think TI is the only viable package, but it is a good one for starters. In theory, I see many great swimmers who might benefit from the introspection and analysis that TI provides to address some inefficiencies in their balance or stroke that appear to be obvious even to me as a relative novice. Obviously there is a lot left for me to learn, and some of it may have to come from outside TI, but for me, this is just theoretical -- there is a lot in basic TI outcome that I have yet to successfully integrate into my core practice, and I see this gap as my greatest current barrier to progress, so that's where my current focus will be.

Last edited by sclim : 12-24-2015 at 06:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-28-2015
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 647
CoachBobM
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony0000 View Post
Bob,

To state the question more precisely then, should TI be taught *first*? (As I mentioned, I think teaching the standard crawl and TI simultaneously would be confusing. Am I mistaken about this?)

Tony

"Swim by the mile; improve by the inch."
I'm wondering what, exactly, you have in mind when you say "standard crawl" or how you think it is different from the stroke taught by TI.

First, let's make sure you understand what TI freestyle actually is. The two basic objectives of TI swimming are:

1) minimize drag
2) maximize propulsion.

Minimizing drag is achieved in a couple of ways:

A) Minimize the cross-sectional area your body presents to the water by:

- achieving a horizontal body position through balance
- keeping the axis of your spine aligned with your direction of motion.

B) Maintain a narrow, streamlined body shape.

Maximizing propulsion is more complex, because even a swimmer with poor stroke technique can increase propulsion by improving fitness. But since this method of increasing propulsion is independent of stroke technique, we can define the TI approach as: maximizing the amount of propulsion the swimmer can achieve using whatever level of fitness he or she currently has. This is achieved in a couple of ways:

A) Draw on more of your strength by enlisting the power your core body, instead of just your arm and leg strength.

B) Minimize actions that expend energy without aiding propulsion. This includes learning to grab onto the water more effectively, so that you push your body past the water instead of pushing the water aside.

Note that your fitness will increase regardless of whether you are practicing good technique or bad technique. But you will be able to swim farther and faster at any level of fitness if your technique is better. And note also that the combinations of muscles you use when practicing good technique are not exactly the same as those you use when practicing bad technique, so if you try to build fitness while practicing bad technique, you will in some degree be developing the wrong combinations of muscles.


Bob
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.