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  #1  
Old 09-14-2011
rbs24h rbs24h is offline
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Default Yang's Record/I posted in reply to article

Thank you for the article. I am new to triathlon this year. I noted that Sun Yang's breathing rate was 30bpm, about 1/2 normal at max effort. And his stroke rate was 75% of his nearest competitors, 60 SPL vs. 80 SPL. Couldn't I assume from these two facts that he was using less energy but swimming faster than the competition? Even BEFORE the last 100? If so, why call attention to 2nd and 3rd place finishers who were working harder and going slower with "Shoulder Driven" Freestyle? Says that Yang's kick has to be incredibly strong to swim "very fast" with his "Hip Driven" technique but in the video, until that last 50, it looked like: easy 4 beat, rest, easy 4 beat, rest. Or practically a 2 beat kick. I would agree that he turned everything up in the last 50 and to even another level especially in last 25. But couldn't be argued that he had the ability to go to that level because of the energy he saved during the first 1400. And while saving that energy, he still had a 5-7 second lead after 1400, which he extended to 10 seconds in the last 100 because Cochrane and Kis had no other gear to go to with their energy already having been used at 80SPL for 1400. The reader's question was what triathletes can learn from this. From the article, the answer I am getting is "don't bother with Yang's style". But mostly, I am confused as to why their shoulder driven technique should get more of our attention. Seems an odd answer to me especially since he broke a 10 year old record...And the previous record holder used the same technique. Again, I am new to Triathlon so not so sure about any of this. Thanks for the article and the link to video, I had not seen it and found it absolutely incredible.
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  #2  
Old 09-14-2011
terry terry is offline
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RBS
Where was the article to which you refer,which says -- in seeming denial of all logic - "learn nothing from Sun Yang and keep working too hard to swim too slowly."

You have it exactly. He had a large lead at 1400 meters, gained by swimming with far more ease, yet far faster, than anyone else in that world class field. And the energy he'd saved allowed him to swim the unimaginable time of 25.9 sec on his final 50m.

Applying that to triathlon, you'd use that energy to bike and run very strongly, rather than unleashing a final sprint of blinding speed in the water.
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  #3  
Old 09-15-2011
TomH TomH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
RBS
Where was the article to which you refer,which says -- in seeming denial of all logic - "learn nothing from Sun Yang and keep working too hard to swim too slowly."

You have it exactly. He had a large lead at 1400 meters, gained by swimming with far more ease, yet far faster, than anyone else in that world class field. And the energy he'd saved allowed him to swim the unimaginable time of 25.9 sec on his final 50m.

Applying that to triathlon, you'd use that energy to bike and run very strongly, rather than unleashing a final sprint of blinding speed in the water.
With a Google search, I found the following article which looks like it might be the article in question:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cm...articleid=2356

As rbs24h was, I am also mystified by opinion stated in this article.
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Old 09-15-2011
TIJoe TIJoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomH View Post
With a Google search, I found the following article which looks like it might be the article in question:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cm...articleid=2356

As rbs24h was, I am also mystified by opinion stated in this article.
Gary Hall Sr.'s strong recommendation of shoulder driven style to triatheletes
is a bit mystifying. This is not the first time and sure won't be the last he went against hip-driven style. His premise is that you can't swim fast using hip-driven style unless you have a very strong kick. Seems to be just his belief rather than based on good evidence.

Sun does have very strong kicks, 4 beats or 6 beats. I tried to imitate his kick with a 2 beat, felt good for a short period of time. Not able to keep it up for long distance.
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Old 09-15-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomH View Post
With a Google search, I found the following article which looks like it might be the article in question:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cm...articleid=2356

As rbs24h was, I am also mystified by opinion stated in this article.
I used to spend a couple hours every day on beginner triathlete answer questions like the original one posted...but it seemed like such a waste of time when someone like Gary Hall would post an illogical reply and everyone thought he was god for posting it. I decided I'd spend my time more wisely with folks who were preselected for thinking critically (you folks here on the forum).

If it's got Gary Halls name on it, and it has to do with triathlons, simply ignore it.
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  #6  
Old 09-15-2011
rbs24h rbs24h is offline
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Default Yang's Record/I posted in reply to article

Thanks for reply Terry,

Sorry for not replying sooner and yes the BT article is the one I commented on. At last check, it was the only comment. I'm sure you have read it by now. I am so glad that you validated what I was thinking because since I am new to swimming/triathlon, anyone that has at least 40 years more experience than me in swimming, especially with a couple of world records under their belt, could say/write just about anything and I would have little to no experience to draw from to even question them. But I did question him because of the simplicity of the Self Coach TI DVD that I have been spending time with, and the Seminar Presentation Videos (Boise, Boston etc) on You Tube. I have improved immensely in a short period of time based on my knowledge of the stroke, my speed using whole stroke, my SPL and really for me, most importantly, my FUN! I get butterflies going to the pool for my swims (still mostly drills but what can I tell ya, I love em) and I'm 48 years old for crying out loud. I feel like I have been given a new athletic "movement" to master that is unmasterable. I played basketball and baseball in college, and then I played golf for 20 years for the same reason. But for me, there has become something of a spiritual quality to being weightless while practicing this movement.
Not to get all melodramatic on you guys but swimming the TI way has changed my vision. I literally see correlations in the bike and run as well, since I am a complete newcomer to each of the 3 disciplines. A little easier to execute the changes biking and running but steady, rhythm at fastest speed possible without sacrificing form apply for me in each discipline of Triathlon. And this is based on 4 Sprints and completion of training for an Oly which is a week from Sunday. Now I'm starting to see its correlations to life's lessons. Wild!!! Is it just me? Am I completely losing it? I certainly hope not. If I am, let me go.......

Before I even read that BT article and posted about it, I wanted to post to you Terry that one thing that helped me physically improve my movements in my next time in the pool was simply watching, over and over, the TI Self Coaching DVD segments. I feel that I can make positive steps by envisioning myself and even rotating some, spear-switching some, while sitting in bed, all while watching you actually perform movements in the water. The power of the mind is an incredible thing. The power of my wife's mind is going to find me a new place to study DVD and finally...
To not see what Yang truly did for what it was, seems to be an example of how powerful the mind can be... when closed...
Thanks all,

Paul H
Southern Cal
rbs24h@gmail.com
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Old 09-15-2011
vndad vndad is offline
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After reading Gary Hall Sr.'s article the other day I too was perplexed by his insistence that shoulder-driven freestyle is definitively the better technique to emulate for distance swimmers.

Watching the underwater slow-motion clip of the 1500m final (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvM3JYC--hM), I don't see how Ryan Cochrane can be considered a classic shoulder-driven freestyler. In comparison to Sun, Cochrane has a much higher stroke rate and six-beat kicked throughout the race. But both Sun and Cochrane swim front-quadrant as opposed to rotary freestyle. The latter is the signature of shoulder-driven technique - see this video from Mike Bottom, the head coach of University of Michigan's swimming program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOMF54wj2aA

So at least in this instance, Gary Hall Sr.'s advocacy of shoulder-driven freestyle is not supported, if not outright contradicted, by the evidence he presented. That said, I do like the idea of breathing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TIJoe View Post
Sun does have very strong kicks, 4 beats or 6 beats. I tried to imitate his kick with a 2 beat, felt good for a short period of time. Not able to keep it up for long distance.
From the underwater slow-motion clip, we can see Sun Yang's strong kicks are perfectly synchronized with his stokes. I believe this is what makes his swim so efficient. It was reported Sun swims 20km every day. The perfection we witness doesn't come easily. So in that Gary Hall Sr. may have a point.
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Old 09-15-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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The funny thing is that I just saw a talk given by Mike Bottom in which he discussed his version of hip driven/shoulder driven and body driven. In their nomenclature, body driven is the last 15m of an all out 100m sprint effort (shoulder driven) and it looks wacked out!!

Mike clearly differentialted that shoulder driven was for 100 & 50m sprinters.

Gary Hall, who seems to be building off Mike Bottom's distinctions (or vice versa) certainly doesn't express an understanding of the hip driven freestyle.

But furthermore, Hall's explanation simply doesn't make sense. Discard his opinions on triathlon!
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  #9  
Old 09-16-2011
CoachKevin CoachKevin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
The funny thing is that I just saw a talk given by Mike Bottom in which he discussed his version of hip driven/shoulder driven and body driven. In their nomenclature, body driven is the last 15m of an all out 100m sprint effort (shoulder driven) and it looks wacked out!!

Mike clearly differentialted that shoulder driven was for 100 & 50m sprinters.

Gary Hall, who seems to be building off Mike Bottom's distinctions (or vice versa) certainly doesn't express an understanding of the hip driven freestyle.

But furthermore, Hall's explanation simply doesn't make sense. Discard his opinions on triathlon!
Just another example of someone who was good at swimming, but doesn't necessarily understand it - TI or no TI. Just listen to some of the nonsense that Rowdy Gaines comes out with during swimming telecasts. Same goes for James Parrack in the UK. The network honchos - who don't know beans about swimming, in this case - think that successful athletes are "experts", when nothing could be further from the truth.
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  #10  
Old 09-17-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKevin View Post
Just another example of someone who was good at swimming, but doesn't necessarily understand it - TI or no TI. Just listen to some of the nonsense that Rowdy Gaines comes out with during swimming telecasts. Same goes for James Parrack in the UK. The network honchos - who don't know beans about swimming, in this case - think that successful athletes are "experts", when nothing could be further from the truth.
I've noticed that the Australian commentators really seem to know what they are talking about. Whenever possible I try to find an australian version of a swim race and just listen to them talk.
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Fresh Freestyle

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