to kayak or not to kayak

[Danny]

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

Hi Danny,

I do agree with Salvo in part in that Sam is in demo mode, rehearsing the movement, and a feeling of a "throw from pelvis", not about the timing of high/low side arms. In the full series Sam moving from drill to free there is a high and low side arm connection, not a coupling or windmill like timing. And as you noticed with the high side arm dropping in rotates your body, not the low side arm pulling into rotation. This is seen with Sam in drill mode as he vaults over the low side arm in drill - body doesn't rotate until the high side arm drops in. That rotation happens from the weight and momentum of high side arm driven forward, spine lengthens, core remains tone, vessel balanced; analogous to being pulled from lead arm rather than pushing water back with low side arm. Gravity and momentum are a wonderful thing when you work with it not against it.

Restart drill is not for the novice, but for those experienced swimmers that have been under the perception pushing water back and finishing at hip. The idea is to launch the high side arm from the pelvis with a relaxed shoulder allowing its weight and momentum to swing forward from the hip and not from the shoulder. This is something that is not easily felt and can be easily misunderstood based on ones own filters or accepted norms.

However, once you feel it and begin to get in right, you can easily send your body forward the length from fingertips (of extended arm) to toes with a *single* arm throw. Sam does this very well. I have discovered what works much better than restart drill (for both novice and elite swimmers) is single arm fly launching high side arm from hip with rotation. This releases the shoulder tension, allows limb to be soft and fluid, connects high side arm to hip/pelvis, and arm naturally pops out of the surface under its own momentum. Swimmer now has the feeling of the high side arm releasing forward and accelerating, not pushing water back and decelerating at the hip.

Have fun with it!

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Thanks, as always for your input. I haven't really played much with one-armed fly, although maybe I should. I'm not sure I followed your description above, but maybe I just need to try it in the water. Recently I got someone to critique my fly and she pointed out that I was recovering with bent arms. I thought about this some and cam up with the following explanation: From underwater, the classic path your hands should trace in a fly stroke is keyhole shaped. The keyhole should actually widen in the back, after it reaches its narrowest point, and mine wasn't. This widening in the back occurs by straightening your elbows, and that was a missing piece for me. When I started doing this in fly, some advice you have given on this forum concerning freestyle also seemed to click for me. You said that your arm should already be moving forward in the back when you come out of the water, if I recollect properly. So I tried this and was very impressed with the results. It prevents that hesitation in the back which slows your stroke rate. By doing this, I find that the stroke rates of 1:20-1:30/s that I have been working at become much easier, and I have started playing around with even faster stroke rates. Of course, starting your arm forward before you come out of the water in back can shorten you stroke, and perhaps this is just what I need to swim at faster stroke rates. This gets into the difficult question of what the ideal compromise between DPS and stroke rate should be. I have the feeling that swimming at a somewhat faster stroke rate can actually be easier for me, especially when I am starting to get tired. So this is all stuff to play with!

Thanks, again for your help.

[Zenturtle]

whether you cal it pull or anchor, fact is that Sam is pushing his whole body up with his underwater arm anchor.He is pushing water down with his low side arm.
Then he falls from that anchor sideways and forward. The speed you feel at the time you are spearing is the same as the speed the car has at the bottom of the hill.

hold the low arm next to the body motionless and try to move forward with the high side.throw and compare that with an anchored/pulling arm..
I agree the arm should feel as if you are doing the exercise on dryland with zero slip on the low side arm. Like walking with the arms, with augmentation from the kick and connection from front to back.
.

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by Danny

You said that your arm should already be moving forward in the back when you come out of the water, if I recollect properly. So I tried this and was very impressed with the results. It prevents that hesitation in the back which slows your stroke rate.

This is something I am always trying to do--I have posted it before, not sure if I stole it (along with much else!) from Coach Stuart or not, but I definitely like to have my hand moving forward (pulled by shoulder/elbow) even before it leaves the water on recovery. It reminds me of pedaling circles on a bicycle rather than mashing the pedals.

To many observers, especially non-TI swimmers, this looks like you are not finishing the stroke strongly because you are not pushing water all the way back to the hip. I am very curious what the experienced swimmers and TI coaches here think of this issue (hand moving forward before it leaves water)--anyone got any thoughts?

[borate]

Shinji advocates this "pull out of the pocket" approach. Scrutinize his videos. A venerable local swim teacher characterized what may be a similar action as "zipping up the side."

[Zenturtle]

I thought Shinji used a final fast push with the hand to bounce the arm forward from the water right at the same time as the shoulder pulls the arm forward.
This gives the same effect as pulling the hand forward when leaving the water, only less passive and giving some usefull backward force.

In the grand scheme of things this is a very small detail, not that important.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin

This is something I am always trying to do--I have posted it before, not sure if I stole it (along with much else!) from Coach Stuart or not, but I definitely like to have my hand moving forward (pulled by shoulder/elbow) even before it leaves the water on recovery. It reminds me of pedaling circles on a bicycle rather than mashing the pedals.

To many observers, especially non-TI swimmers, this looks like you are not finishing the stroke strongly because you are not pushing water all the way back to the hip. I am very curious what the experienced swimmers and TI coaches here think of this issue (hand moving forward before it leaves water)--anyone got any thoughts?

Tom, I think what I said about the hand moving forward already at the end of the stroke may not be quite right. I like your bicycle analogy better. I'm not sure what the hand is doing, but it may be a moot point. The motion should be initiated (I think!) with the shoulder. Oddly, I stumbled on this by doing something quite different at the end of my butterfly stroke, namely straightening my elbow at the end of the stroke. Your shoulder position in fly is quite different when you come out of the water than what it is in freestyle, but this same motion seemed to remove a hesitation in my butterfly stroke also.

[borate]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

I thought Shinji used a final fast push with the hand to bounce the arm forward from the water right at the same time as the shoulder pulls the arm forward...

Indeed. Focussing on the exit, here's his movement...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BJCxP6RcjE