kick->roll, or roll->kick?

[Zenturtle]

Whats right or wrong, or is it simply a matter of stroke style?
Is rolling first and accentuating it with a kick the best?
And what starts the roll if it isnt the kick?
http://www.seahiker.com/7-mistakes-y...two-beat-kick/

Looks to me he is pulling first and kickfinishes this action. A practice thats not adviced by TI as far as I understand it.
I like how he explains things very well, but is it the same as TI sees it?

[s.sciame]

I'm for roll -> kick.

For me it's very difficult to really start the rotation with a kick when I'm fully rotated on one side. In order to do this I should kick strong but this is not the goal (with fins it's easy and funny by the way because you have more leverage, a naked foot anchors less). In my case the rotation starts by rhythm and gravity of the recovery arm, and the kick gently finishes the action. It's the same with 6bk.

Curious to hear about others,
Salvo

[novaswimmer]

Originally Posted by s.sciame

I'm for roll -> kick.

In my case the rotation starts by rhythm and gravity of the recovery arm, and the kick gently finishes the action. It's the same with 6bk.

That has been my thinking too. For me, the recovery arm falling into a spear, combined with the opposite arm pulling begins the hip rotation. There are probably a lot of other subtle movements that contribute initially to the rotation that I'm not even aware of or can't put into words. Then downward kick seems to 'assist' that rotation and pushes the spearing arm to its full extension.

In this video of Terry it's hard to tell if one comes before the other, or if they happen simultaneously. EDIT: looking at it more closely it appears the kick assists Terry in the latter half of the rotation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

Anyway, I'm anxious to hear what the coaches say.

I may try to delay my kick a bit more and see what happens.

[Danny]

I'll pose a related question: roll-catch or do both simultaneously? I tend to go for roll-catch, but that may be due to poor shoulder flexibility.

The kick can be used to accelerate your recovering arm out of the water (roll-kick) or to push you over your anchor (kick-roll?) I think that is the choice.

One last question: Not sure about this, but I may sometimes have two pulses in one kick. In the first, my whole leg goes down and my knee starts to bend, in the second my knee straightens out much like a whip. So one can start the roll and the second can come after it? Or is this a crossover?

[descending]

Originally Posted by Danny

I'll pose a related question: roll-catch or do both simultaneously? I tend to go for roll-catch, but that may be due to poor shoulder flexibility.

The kick can be used to accelerate your recovering arm out of the water (roll-kick) or to push you over your anchor (kick-roll?) I think that is the choice.

One last question: Not sure about this, but I may sometimes have two pulses in one kick. In the first, my whole leg goes down and my knee starts to bend, in the second my knee straightens out much like a whip. So one can start the roll and the second can come after it? Or is this a crossover?

As to the first part this is really just another one of those nuances that is best answered by 'maybe'. I use a loping stroke at race effort and my shoulder driven side I kick and catch at early while my low side hip is down. The other hip driven side is just a toe flick. As long as you keep that taughtness and your body stays organized and sleek that's job one, if it adds some propulsion that's bonus. Of course for pure sprinting it's all gotta be on and on both sides to be fast, but that's not what people do here. My coach pretty much sums up kicking demands for us as do what makes the clock stop faster and that is purely experimental. The one constant is that whatever kick we employ has to be sustainable and simultaneously overcome whatever drag we add when using it.

[Tom Pamperin]

I also roll-kick, I think. The spearing motion helps the weight shift, then the kick happens after the hand enters.

Seems to work for me.

[lloyddinma]

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin

I also roll-kick, I think. The spearing motion helps the weight shift, then the kick happens after the hand enters.

Seems to work for me.

I am for kick--> roll.

I believe the kick is supposed to trigger the hip-rotation via Newton's third law; an opposite force to the one applied.

However, I may be misinterpreting the question. :)

[borate]

Check this out.

[Zenturtle]

So you guys are all perfect swimmers in the arm pull department?
I guess 95% of swimmers are pushing water down form start of pull to arm at shoulder height.
Spearing deep is using the arm as a snow shovel pushing water up, but that force is less than pushing down force I guess.
Any water that is pushed down at the front is helping rotation, and bringing the elbow with the attached forearm/hand to the body after the wide point also has this effect a bit.
For me the driving force of rotation feels more like a four wheeldrive. The rotation can be helped at the rear with the kick/hip, with the arm thrown in at the front and with the underwaterpull, but the arm thrown forward movment is also originating from the kick.
If focus is on the kick, its hip first and shouders follow to extension, after extension it feels like shoulders lead, kick finishes.
If front and rear wheels work just as hard there is little twist between shoulders and hips and they rotate more or less at the same time, at the same rate.
All in all its hard to tell what leads and what follows.

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

All in all its hard to tell what leads and what follows.

ZT, This statement I absolutely agree with......I can't understand how, without analyzing a slo-mo video, anyone can parse the precise timing of the entire swimming movement