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  #11  
Old 09-29-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
... So, if you are able to move the paddle like Sun Yang, yes, get a long stroke. You can take advantage of a long movement with good propulsive efficiency.
If you are stiff and unable to make good use of the first part of the stroke you are facing a different optimal drag propulsion compomise.
A shorter stroke could get you longer in a more efficient propulsion efficiency with less speed variations. It could means you spent a little shorter in the most streamlined position also, so there is the tradeoff ...
Agree the comparison of our "paddling" with mechanical transfer mechanisms of bikes and cars is only rough and ready. But it also seems to be an oversimplification to say that long stroke = more or less power at different stroke stages. There's no 1:1 relationship.

Nonetheless I find the subject of DPS interesting (why you're writing and reading all this if it bores you though seems contrary).

I think the issue revolves around the stage of development a swimmer is at. For myself focussing on what it is that delivers a higher DPS is the most efficient way to assess the development of my stroke. That is not the same as developing more speed or power/distance conversion efficiency. To me too this seems more appropriate later.

There are so many trade-offs between the use of the different elements of feestyle it seems to me. There is that between the force used for rotation (angular momentum) and that used for propulsion (linear momentum). This trade-off is present in arm, leg and body movement. And there is also a blance between different rotations and timing of of hip and shoulder girdles, and the balance between hip girdle rotation and kick. There is the balance between using breath for buoyancy and using it for energy generation, between finding and exploiting the catch for linear and angular momentum and so on.

Exploring all these new experiences, and learning how to feel the optimum connection between them, is tough for any non-aquatic animal but it must be especially so for adult learners. Hence for those of us on the steeper parts of the learning curve rather than those of us in a position to truly fine tune our technique it seems to me Terry's advice to focus on getting a long stroke fits well.

The question is WHEN is long too long. I finally got my head around the basic arithmetic yesterday. No rocket science. (D'oh!) To get a pace of 2:00 at an SPL of 16 means a TT setting of 1.50. Here's where the focus on using 100ths of a sec comes in as is say we want to get to 1:55 we only need to drop the TT by 0.06. If we go straight to 1.40 then to get 1:55 will require a lot more effort. When I feel myself starting to get a long DPS it gives me a buzz and I immediately try to go faster. It's the same with skiing! The problem of course is that my technique is not grooved, so it's just hit and miss. Simply applying more power destroys the budding improvement almost immediately.

I can see what I've been doing re stroke rate, as well as how that fits to DPS and that last part of Terry's post makes more sense to me now. So my intention is, as the blog recommends, to use a tempo I naturally fall into and then increase it, slowly. But I won't continue to do that over 25's. I'm going to use intervals of say 100's 150's etc., so it's closer to CSS, rather than try and stay at the bottom or off the bottom of my green zone. I now feel it's ok to allow it to slip up into the middle of the zone and adopt a more relaxed approach to DPS variation!
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  #12  
Old 09-29-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi Talvi, one funny way to experience it is drafting. For me it was an eye opener the first time at the pool: having the water "opened" by someone else in front made a huge difference in terms of both speed and ease. And this is the place where I get the most from a longer and slowish stroke, less "inertia" to overcome.
In open water, if I move out of a draft I have to revert to a shorter and faster stroke in order to keep the same pace.

Regards,
Salvo
Thanks Salvo. Now you mention it I have experienced this in the pool and its associated problem with overtaking!
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #13  
Old 09-29-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post

Even Phelps took more time than any adult swimmer has available to lenghten out his stroke after he had learned to swim efficiently with a shorter stroke.
Can we shortcut Phelps development steps and jump directly to the end of his development path as adult learners?
That's the point: in the end, there are no shortcuts...

To me, there's a difference between adult learners and swimmers with a competitive background. Terry has a competitive background: in his teens he swam his many miles/hours and managed to swim 1500m in under 20 minutes with a short fast "ineffective" stroke (1500 in under 20mins, I'd like to have that kind of ineffectiveness). Then he quitted swimming and started over again many years later with a totally different approach and great outcomes (guess he went again under 20mins with a longer stroke). However I don't believe those early days were lost and his path and outcomes can't be the same path of an adult learner ones.
Take Shinji for instance: adult learner, perfect technique, great flexibility, he masters the stroke. As far as I know he doesn't swim sub 20mins over 1500 and I believe that if he'll ever want to achieve that, in a way sooner or later he should cover that stage that adult learners skipped (ie no shortcuts).

Salvo
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  #14  
Old 09-30-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
... Take Shinji for instance: adult learner, perfect technique, great flexibility, he masters the stroke. ...
Shinji was a "competent" swimmer from what I can see before TI. There's a video of his before and after style.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #15  
Old 09-30-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Shinji was a "competent" swimmer from what I can see before TI. There's a video of his before and after style.
Here is his story, no competitive background:

http://www.swimwellblog.com/archives/1666/
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  #16  
Old 09-30-2015
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CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
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Shinji competent, but certainly exhausted (before TI).

Coach Shinji, before and after TI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FrSTJLN_CY
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