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  #21  
Old 07-07-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Hey Talvi,

I like the new subject of your thread because it's about me too, and that's my favorite subject :o) I think I am roughly in your situation with the exception that I have been in it longer and had more time to come to terms with it. So here are some things I have found over the years that seem roughly repeatable, but don't get talked about much.

Usually I swim 3 or 4 times a week, but twice a year, when I go on vacation, I get to swim every day. Not only am I swimming every day, but I swim in a 50 m pool and also in open water, which I virtually never do at home. The result is that I am usually swimming faster and have the best technique when I come home from vacation. It always seems to me that I have gained some precious new insights into my swimming at this point, and I hope that I can hold on to them, even when I go back to swimming 3 or 4 times a week. Sadly, this has not been the case. The amount of time it will take for my technique to decay back to its old state will vary, but it always seems to happen.

So what is it that I am doing on vacation that provides this magic? Obviously swimming every day helps, but also the 50 m pool and open water help. A 25 m pool doesn't really give you enough time to find and experiment with your rhythm. 50 m is better for that, and I think that really makes a big difference for me. I find that I work harder in a 25 m pool, because I know that the wall is coming soon and when I push off I can coast a while and relax, but in a 50 m pool I have to think more about pace and this is useful. Needless to say, the open water is the most freeing. There are no longer any stripes on the bottom to look at and, if you don't know the lake or pond where you are swimming, there is no longer any way to gauge how fast or well you are swimming other than by feeling. This is an enormously freeing experience. I think all of these things combine to make me the best swimmer I can be when I come home from vacation.

One last thought. There is a lot of discussion here about what "good enough" means and the only hard and fast criterion I hear getting laid out is under 2 min/100 m for a distance pace. Seems like a lot of us are struggling with that hurdle. So where did we come up with this number? Does it come from a scientific study of our individual swimming capability? To the best of my recollection, a lot of this number comes from the times (a long time ago) when Charles started saying things like "good swimmers have trouble swimming at paces under 2 min/100m" I think a lot of us may have taken this to heart and started thinking "If I can't swim distance faster than this pace than I am still not a good swimmer." I, for one, am not so sure that this statement by Charles should be taken too seriously. There is ample room for discussion about the merits of this assertion and I leave that to others (or perhaps another thread) but I would like to suggest that maybe we should all take a second look at this and decide to what extent it makes sense for us personally.

Good luck!
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  #22  
Old 07-07-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Danny,

2ct or less...

Quote:
...There is a lot of discussion here about what "good enough" means and the only hard and fast criterion I hear getting laid out is under 2 min/100 m for a distance pace. Seems like a lot of us are struggling with that hurdle. So where did we come up with this number?...
This two minutes have been a hurdle for me in former times when jogging with Cooper's program (which was with some scientific foundation): 2min/400m (all readers are alowed to LOL).

Also I remember CoachDavidShen once stated: 30min/1500m should be reachable for most of us.

And yes this 2min/100m still is a long time plateau for me in LCM. (Not such a big problem in SCM any more, when using a TT). Glad I'm not the one and only with that...

Best regards,
Werner

PS: What I think is more important, to find out where is our individual threshold at the edge aerobic-anaerobic and how to deal with it. Has to be something like CSS work?
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  #23  
Old 07-07-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Hello Talvi,

my last post in:

http://totalimmersion.net/forum/show...t=7444&page=11

Please understand right: I did not find this Philosopher's Stone, but would like to find... :-)

Best regards,
Wermer
Thanks Werner :~)
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #24  
Old 07-07-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
This two minutes have been a hurdle for me in former times when jogging with Cooper's program (which was with some scientific foundation): 2min/400m (all readers are alowed to LOL).

Also I remember CoachDavidShen once stated: 30min/1500m should be reachable for most of us.
Hi Werner,

2min/400m jogging was a very easy pace for me as a young man, but I can't go anywhere near it in my current state. The difference is clearly age. So when I hear times like this set out for anything, but without consideration of age, I always wonder what "most of us" means.
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  #25  
Old 07-07-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
.. I like the new subject of your thread because it's about me too, and that's my favorite subject :o) ..!
LoL Carnegie made a fortune out of that understanding Danny!

I second everything you say about open water. The only problem is jetskiis boats and the anglers sitting in them looking backwards.

Re the 2min/100m watershed, I think like Werner says it's come from a variety of places, but I do think there is a threshold there of some sort. All of the swimmers in the pool who I see as "elegant" in the water swim at about that pace or faster i.e a few seconds a lap faster than I. But the point for me is that they are not trying to swim fast. They are jogging along at a "normal" pace, rather than at the jogging pace of the swimmer athletes. Being only a few seconds off, and not swimming at an effort lvel that is exhausting, I feel I should be able to achieve it. But more than this is a feeling that when things, very rarely, come together in my stroke (into what I've describes as a decent basic stroke) that pace seems readily achievable. My faster laps and slower laps are more a function of technique I feel rather than of effort.

On the other side of this though is the Zen effect of trying to reach a goal. I have found this so often to be counterproductive now that I have drifted away from the finer focal points into the more general rock 'n roll of it all - culminating in my last swim in the waves! :~)

The main focus must be to enjoy it and for me that is about the sensation of being in and moving with the water. I find that's easy to lose that in navel gazing.

PS
And well said about the age factor.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #26  
Old 07-07-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
LoL Carnegie made a fortune out of that understanding Danny!

I second everything you say about open water. The only problem is jetskiis boats and the anglers sitting in them looking backwards.

Re the 2min/100m watershed, I think like Werner says it's come from a variety of places, but I do think there is a threshold there of some sort. All of the swimmers in the pool who I see as "elegant" in the water swim at about that pace or faster i.e a few seconds a lap faster than I. But the point for me is that they are not trying to swim fast. They are jogging along at a "normal" pace, rather than at the jogging pace of the swimmer athletes. Being only a few seconds off, and not swimming at an effort lvel that is exhausting, I feel I should be able to achieve it. But more than this is a feeling that when things, very rarely, come together in my stroke (into what I've describes as a decent basic stroke) that pace seems readily achievable. My faster laps and slower laps are more a function of technique I feel rather than of effort.

On the other side of this though is the Zen effect of trying to reach a goal. I have found this so often to be counterproductive now that I have drifted away from the finer focal points into the more general rock 'n roll of it all - culminating in my last swim in the waves! :~)

The main focus must be to enjoy it and for me that is about the sensation of being in and moving with the water. I find that's easy to lose that in navel gazing.

PS
And well said about the age factor.
Hi Talvi,

Seems to me there has been quite an evolution to your approach to swimming in the last year or so. Everything you said above makes a lot of sense to me. Sounds like you're in it for the long haul now instead of wanting to be somewhere particular, for example, in 6 months from now. No need to wish you good luck in your endeavors, because in an important way you're already there.
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  #27  
Old 07-07-2015
Streak Streak is offline
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Talvi,
I am with you on all of this.
Age has a much smaller bearing when it comes to swimming as compared to running. In swimming it is mainly technique and as you said

"My faster laps and slower laps are more a function of technique I feel rather than of effort."

Younger swimmers with more upper body strength may be able to power their way through things and overcome poor technique with more effort but that's not what we are talking about here.

I am in my mid 50's I have watched my times drop from over the 2/100 mark way down where even if I tried I could not swim slow enough to do 2min per 100. A small amount of that is fitness but it's largely improved technique. I got there by counting nothing (I have said this many times before) except my time per 100 and my time per 1650 allowing my brain to focus only on the swimming mechanics focal point for the day. Keeping this up until I could 2BK, head facing down, catch, recovery etc. all at the same time without any of them falling apart.

Now that I think I am getting close to this I am starting to take notice of my SPL, DPS and SR to see what happens when I vary these from my light jogging pace of sub 1:50 per 100.

Today I did one of Terry's drills. 3 x 550 yards at varying pace (without a TT) for each 550.

First one was 9:34, second one was 9:18 and third one 9:16 with a 2 minute rest in between each one. So that's a total time of 28:04 for the 1650.

I then thought I was doing a really slow warm down 100 and it turned out to be at a pace of 1:44 which ties in with my comment above about my jogging pace.

Take video, post it here, let's help each other get there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
LoL Carnegie made a fortune out of that understanding Danny!

I second everything you say about open water. The only problem is jetskiis boats and the anglers sitting in them looking backwards.

Re the 2min/100m watershed, I think like Werner says it's come from a variety of places, but I do think there is a threshold there of some sort. All of the swimmers in the pool who I see as "elegant" in the water swim at about that pace or faster i.e a few seconds a lap faster than I. But the point for me is that they are not trying to swim fast. They are jogging along at a "normal" pace, rather than at the jogging pace of the swimmer athletes. Being only a few seconds off, and not swimming at an effort lvel that is exhausting, I feel I should be able to achieve it. But more than this is a feeling that when things, very rarely, come together in my stroke (into what I've describes as a decent basic stroke) that pace seems readily achievable. My faster laps and slower laps are more a function of technique I feel rather than of effort.

On the other side of this though is the Zen effect of trying to reach a goal. I have found this so often to be counterproductive now that I have drifted away from the finer focal points into the more general rock 'n roll of it all - culminating in my last swim in the waves! :~)

The main focus must be to enjoy it and for me that is about the sensation of being in and moving with the water. I find that's easy to lose that in navel gazing.

PS
And well said about the age factor.
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  #28  
Old 07-08-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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[quote=Talvi;53908]All of the swimmers in the pool who I see as "elegant" in the water swim at about that pace or faster i.e a few seconds a lap faster than I. But the point for me is that they are not trying to swim fast. They are jogging along at a "normal" pace, rather than at the jogging pace of the swimmer athletes. Being only a few seconds off, and not swimming at an effort lvel that is exhausting, I feel I should be able to achieve it. But more than this is a feeling that when things, very rarely, come together in my stroke (into what I've describes as a decent basic stroke) that pace seems readily achievable. My faster laps and slower laps are more a function of technique I feel rather than of effort.
[quote]

Hi Talvi,

I must admit that the cross section of swimmers I am exposed to is rather limited. I don't live in California or Hawaii and (unfortunately) I don't have exposure to Masters swimming. So I would like to ask you: How often do you see swimmers who look like they are over 60 and they are swimming easily under the 2:00 min/100 m mark? I won't say that I never see this, but in my world it seems rather rare. If you lower that age cutoff to over 50, I think some more come in, but most of the "good" swimmers I see are in the high school swimming team where I swim. There is one tri-athlete I see who definitely swims under 2 min/100m and he looks like he is in his 30s. His technique is terrible, but he is in fantastic shape. Maybe the reason I lack some of the ambition that I see in others on this forum is simply because I live in a rather limited swimming world. Sometimes ignorance is bliss :o)
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  #29  
Old 07-08-2015
Ron Bear Ron Bear is offline
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Danny,
At the pool I use in Florida, I see 60 and 70 year olds with good form and good speed and with bad form and terrible speed. I'm with streak in this. I never see anybody with good form swimming really slow.
Ron
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  #30  
Old 07-08-2015
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Bear View Post
Danny,
At the pool I use in Florida, I see 60 and 70 year olds with good form and good speed and with bad form and terrible speed. I'm with streak in this. I never see anybody with good form swimming really slow.
Ron
Ron, Thanks for the input. Just to be sure I understand, you see lots of 60 and 70 year olds who swim distance paces of under 2 min/100m?

Everyone is different in the aging process, and I agree that (a) technique is even more important for older people than for younger ones and (b) technique plays a bigger role in swimming than, for example, in running. Nonetheless, I do have the feeling that a certain level of conditioning is also required, and it may be harder for younger people to understand this, because it is so easy for them to take it for granted. On the other hand, I see all sorts of room for improvement in my own stroke, so I should think twice about asserting that 2 min/100m pace is out of range for me if I can get my technique better.
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