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  #1  
Old 06-26-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Talvi
Default Heart rate conversion

It is said that because of the horizontal position in swimming heart rates are slower for a given level of exertion than those reached in for instance running.

Does anybody know of a conversion factor that can be applied to the various
formulae out there to calculate the aerobic range of exercise for an individual?
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
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  #2  
Old 06-26-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
...to calculate the aerobic range of exercise for an individual?
Hi Talvi,
I don't know about conversion factor but there's a simple and very effective way to calculate your aerobic range of excercise: CSS (Critical Swim Speed).
Here is some info in case you don't already know about it:

http://steelcityendurance.com/swimmi...sion-swimming/

You'll find lots of further info if you search CSS on internet.
Personally I love this kind of training: simple math, plenty of sets you can design... and it just works. If you're interested in aerobic training you should at least give it a try.

Regards,
Salvo
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  #3  
Old 06-27-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Thanks Salvo, and nice suggestion!

It's a lovely article by Coach Suzanne, but because I don't have an athletic approach (training) to my swimming I got stuck at the terms: "warm-up" and "active recovery".

I focus almost 100% on technique improvement, using measures for feedback on how well this is going. I do have the goal of sub 2:00/100m pace over distances >100m but look to achieve that as the by-product of technique improvement. Consequently I suspect almost ALL of my practice, except the occasional 100m or 50m when I use a 1.00 TT setting maintaining the same DPS, might be considered "warm-up" and "active recovery"!

Is the approach usable by someone like me and if you think it is how can I interpet it and/or change my practice to do so?
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #4  
Old 06-28-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Yes, it's usable by anybody capable of swimming at
least 400m continuously. Once you do the test (I'd
choose 400m and 200m time trials) and find out your
current threshold pace (eg 2:05/100m), you have a
precious info on where you really are now, and you
can do anything you want with more awareness: want
to stick to 100% technique sessions? Ok, but you know
that every time you swim at 2:04 or faster you're doing
something not sustainable for long, even if it feels
easy at the beginning (CSS tells you the truth about
you, it's not the only way to know the truth but it is
one good way). Want to practice good technique in
aerobic domain? Choose your favourite SPL/SR combo
that yelds say 2:08/100m pace and keep it for a long
set with short recoveries. Your threshold will improve
and your technique too.

BR,
Salvo
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  #5  
Old 06-28-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I have serious doubts if this approach is helpfull for Talvi.
I think he hasnt found the right stroke yet, whatever that is.
from my memory his stroke needs less rotation, a straighter bodyline, an increased strokerate, and a less deepen sunken head.
Experimenting with gears on the foundation of good aquatiq posture seems more appropiate. And experimenting with effort. Holding on to technique onder hard efffort for longer.
Once he has found a comfortable gear, then he can expand on that.
The majoity of swimmers I see in the pool are long distance guys with mediocre-bad strokes.
They swam that way when I started swimming, and they still swim that way. So swimming slow and long certainly isnt a garantee for technique improvement.
Swiming only 50 is the other extreme offcourse, but you have some basic good stroke before hammering it in during long swims.
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  #6  
Old 06-28-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Don't get me wrong, for sure holding a steady 2:00/100m
is much more a matter of technique than fitness.
That said, the point is: how much gear experimenting
and 100% technique swimming (what does it mean precisely
by the way?) does he have to do before starting to
put some long swim? How much did he improve in
the past year after playing with gears for instance?
If he improved by 10s/100m I'd say ok, go on like
this and you'll soon get to 2:00/100. If this is not
the case, I'd look for something else to try.

Moreover, as I said other times and by personal
experience, you can still work on technique while you
work on fitness. That's why I don't get bored during
aerobic sets.
Lastly, I know you know about people going from
2:12 to 1:32/100m in 2 years by putting some aerobic
and threshold training from the beginning.

BR,
Salvo
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  #7  
Old 06-28-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I get your point, but I dont know what he he has been doing.
I believe he did 500m swims and focussing on max dps, so only trying to swim in the highest possible gear.
My definition of technique swimming is not only slow motion swimming.
Hard effort holding technique together is also technique swimming in my view.
Thats technique training at higher swimspeeds.

A lot is in your head offcourse. You can swim at a reduced effort rate and constantly finetune your stroke.
I hope your stroke is decent enough so that finetuning is enough.
At least its a good idea to ask other swimmers or coaches if you are on the right track.
You could start to micromanage small changes while you are stuck and comfortable in a big strokeflaw.
Obly trying to say that its easier to get rid of the biggest strokeflaws first.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 06-28-2015 at 03:22 PM.
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  #8  
Old 06-29-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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How great this is to read a discussion about MEEEE!! :D Thanks guys :)

Salvo, thanks, it was just those phrases that I had probs with. I have my figures for long sets i.e 500m upwards as that's most often what I do these days.

But I think ZT is right, and ZT: I really noted your comment about head position. A coach walking past my lane shouted "Get your head up!" at me while I was swimming a few weeks back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I have serious doubts if this approach is helpfull for Talvi.
I think he hasnt found the right stroke yet, whatever that is.
from my memory his stroke needs less rotation, a straighter bodyline, an increased strokerate, and a less deepen sunken head.
Experimenting with gears on the foundation of good aquatiq posture seems more appropiate. And experimenting with effort. Holding on to technique onder hard efffort for longer.
Once he has found a comfortable gear, then he can expand on that.
The majoity of swimmers I see in the pool are long distance guys with mediocre-bad strokes.
They swam that way when I started swimming, and they still swim that way. So swimming slow and long certainly isnt a garantee for technique improvement.
Swiming only 50 is the other extreme offcourse, but you have some basic good stroke before hammering it in during long swims.
I really relate to all of that and hope you're right as that's what I'm trying. I also very recently began trying to swim further at faster tempos i.e with more effort rather than changing gears. But my struggle is still to find a basic stroke ... AND IT'S TAKING ME TOO LONG!!!! :( :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I get your point, but I dont know what he he has been doing.
I believe he did 500m swims and focussing on max dps, so only trying to swim in the highest possible gear.
My definition of technique swimming is not only slow motion swimming.
Hard effort holding technique together is also technique swimming in my view.
Thats technique training at higher swimspeeds.

A lot is in your head offcourse. You can swim at a reduced effort rate and constantly finetune your stroke.
I hope your stroke is decent enough so that finetuning is enough.
At least its a good idea to ask other swimmers or coaches if you are on the right track.
You could start to micromanage small changes while you are stuck and comfortable in a big strokeflaw.
Obly trying to say that its easier to get rid of the biggest strokeflaws first.
Fine tuning also seems to describe what I have been experiencing these last 2 yrs and it's been like chopping bits off a wobbly table's legs - I've just got a shorter wobbly table!

The things you pinpointed are what I've been focusing on recently. I'd thought I was focused on them before but seeing more video showed I had made no real progress, so, again, I went back to basics.

I do believe my LOW head position, and/or poorly angled head position (looking backwards) has a huge impact on my breathing and is my core "flaw". I begaan working trying to straighten the elbow and find the track on my spearing arm. I did so while focusing on rolling to the air for breathing more easily and having a straight body line throughout. Correcting my over-rotation, and doing this so I don't under-rotate, seems to address my wayward kicking as a by-product. The absence of a good-enough basic stroke seems to me to be confirmed by the absence of any impact on my numbers when I eliminated kicking almost entirely.

Getting all these to a good-enough level has to be my goal. I do everything I can think of to accomplish this: some strokes at stall-speed, lots of 1.6TT intervals (500m etc) but also some 100m intervals at 1.1TT. I no longer feel like I am racing when I do these faster intervals, and often the DPS is close to my slo-mo stuff - which doesn't seem right at all.

The idea of experimenting with gears is very new for me and feels like a sort of blasphemy or a betrayal of principle! Still, I do believe it is fertile ground for technique improvement as the slo-mo approach imo, although do-able by someone at my level is best suited for those whose technique is good-enough and needing fine-tuning not an overhaul.

Thanks again!! It is really great to have feeback.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 06-29-2015 at 09:50 AM.
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  #9  
Old 06-29-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
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Hello Talvi,

FWIW as ever...

Quote:
..But my struggle is still to find a basic stroke ...
But what is the basic stroke you're searching for?

- A special feeling? (How special should it feel?)
- A special SPL?
- A special SR?
- The stroke with most room for improve? (That might be your worst...)
- Sub 2min/100m as recovery stroke?

No other one than yourself will be able to define your personal basic stroke. And it will be always your decision if and where to work.

Quote:
...Getting all these to a good-enough level has to be my goal...
Same as above only you may define what's good-enough... (Is there a good-enough anywhere with Kaizen?) and what your goal has to be...

And if we don't have critical Coach's looks, we have to decide by ourself which variations are good to safe and which should be better forgotten. More difficult the smaller they are.

Best regards,
Werner
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  #10  
Old 06-29-2015
Streak Streak is offline
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Talvi,
I feel your pain!
I have been happy with my progress having gone from mid to high 1:40's to mid to high 1:30's per 100 yards and my 1650 time from over 30 minutes to under 30 minutes since the beginning of the year.
However every time I get to the pool I don't go to just swim I am always working on trying to find the next aha moment. As one gets better and better its a bit of diminishing returns but it does not stop me from looking, taking video and posting here for more tips.

At some point I am going to have to accept that the technique is as good as it's going to get, focus on consistency and then start doing drills that are more focused on things other than pure technique.

At the moment there is still some inconsistency that bothers me.

Good luck in your quest!
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