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  #11  
Old 01-29-2015
davidprice davidprice is offline
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davidprice
Default Pull or Anchor?

It sounds like a mix of traditional terminology (pull, move water, and S pattern), and TI that instructs to find the most relaxed place (sweet spot) for the arm and hand placement then anchor it. Personally. I like the idea of creating the best 'anchor' which you then use to help propel your body forward like climbing a ladder. Notice, I did not say 'pull'.

My point-of-view is that, assuming your head position is right, the patiently extended arm and hand will settle naturally to the right place dictated by your body rotation. TI taught me the hand position is right when you are balanced, and that spot may not be the same for everyone. At that point my focus is on creating a relaxed 'C' form with my hand and fore arm to help 'climb the ladder'.

I am not sure I like the idea of purposely setting the arm and hand 'out to the side'. From the idea of basic mechanics I think it would take more energy to do that since your fore arm and hand are further from your center of mass and your desired forward direction of travel.

The idea of using engineering fundamentals to dissect freestyle swimming is intriguing, but hard since many swimmers do not have that kind of mind-set, some do. Your shoulder, as mine did, might be the first to let you know if your pull/anchor location is in the right spot for you.

Enjoy each stroke you take!

Dave P.
Weare, NH
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  #12  
Old 01-29-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidprice View Post
I
I am not sure I like the idea of purposely setting the arm and hand 'out to the side'. From the idea of basic mechanics I think it would take more energy to do that since your fore arm and hand are further from your center of mass and your desired forward direction of travel.
@davidprice: This objection of yours was precisely the same sticking point that I had initially, and I had a great deal of difficulty accepting advice from many independent TI sources (including my local TI coach who actually saw me in action spearing too close to the midline) that the spear should be in wide parallel tracks. I finally accepted that they must be right and endeavoured to follow this advice in the manner of painting by numbers but not really understanding it.

I recently have started to pay a lot of attention to get the catch right with an early vertical forearm, etc. As I inch slowly closer to where I would like to end up, I am gradually starting to understand that if I am too close to the midline, especially with my relatively poor shoulder mobility), my attempt at a catch throws my forearm and hand across the midline, with a domino effect on my balance that ends up penalising net velocity far worse than the supposed inefficiencies of applying propulsive forces offset from the central axis of travel.

I have always known that it's complicated, but now I'm actually starting to have an instinctive appreciation for the rationale behind this one particular piece of TI advice.

Last edited by sclim : 01-29-2015 at 10:56 PM.
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  #13  
Old 01-30-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiswimjapan View Post
Many TI beginners try to emphasize their insertion action, so they try to accelerate their hand at insertion.

But insertion itself creates little propulsion. Main propulsion comes from movement of the underwater hand. So you need to utilize the insertion hand as follows;

1) At insertion, you can utilize the potential energy which is kept in your hand.
You just drop your hand and you get enough acceleration to spear your hand.
You rather focus on the form of catch in the water so that you can use it as pivot of leverage.
The reason I try to keep my elbow high at insertion is to keep more potential energy.

2) With using the underwater hand as pivot of leverage, you spear your hand forward. You need to change the direction from down to forward with engaging the middle finger by raising by 1cm.

3) After you change the direction, you quickly extend your elbow along with pushing the water back with the other hand. Pushing the water happens as the result of spearing movement, so you do not need to put your energy.

Based on watching your swim video, you accelerate your hand before insertion. It creates splash and is less efficient. You want to emphasize your action when you extend your arm forward, which is about 0.3-0.5 sec after the insertion.

You always think "Are there any ways to make leverages?" There are so many leverages you can find.
Arigatou gozaimasu!

Thank you for such a helpful observation and for your clear, precise advice. And thank you for taking the time to do this.

I had started to work on insertion but had not found a robust focus for it. Dropping the hand into the water before THEN driving the hand into spear "feels" like it is the focus I need.

When I first watched your inspirational YouTube video, the way your hand seemed to hover momentarily over the water before entering struck me the most. You looked like a cat placing its paw on cold or damp ground. I found it a very beautiful movement. I've never tried to imitate it though, perhaps because until now I have not understand its origin.

Thank you again for your insight and attention. It is greatly appreciated.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #14  
Old 01-30-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bx View Post
We are fortunate to have both Terry and Shinji answering questions here...
You know what I mean!! :)
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #15  
Old 02-02-2015
tiswimjapan tiswimjapan is offline
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tiswimjapan
Default Stabilizing head position

One more important thing is to stabilize the head. This issue is seen among many TI beginners, too.

When you want to extend your arm after spearing, there is a point that your head start moving sideways. You try not to fully extend of the arm. Use the shoulder blade stretch instead of using the shoulder.

And the face is swinging. When your shoulders start rotation, you try to relax your neck so that your face does not swing along with the body roll. This also may happen if you rotate your body too much.

Try to avoid swaying your head and swinging your face. You can check both points at home in front of the mirror. It is not difficult to fix them once you understand when and how they happen.
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  #16  
Old 02-02-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiswimjapan View Post
One more important thing is to stabilize the head. This issue is seen among many TI beginners, too.

When you want to extend your arm after spearing, there is a point that your head start moving sideways. You try not to fully extend of the arm. Use the shoulder blade stretch instead of using the shoulder.

And the face is swinging. When your shoulders start rotation, you try to relax your neck so that your face does not swing along with the body roll. This also may happen if you rotate your body too much.

Try to avoid swaying your head and swinging your face. You can check both points at home in front of the mirror. It is not difficult to fix them once you understand when and how they happen.
Arigatou gozaimasu!! :)

Your advice about hand entry was for me an exceptional focal point in my last sesssion, around which every other element of the stroke seemed to co-ordinate. It even seemed to work on my over-rotation. Amazing! Thank you.

After the session, I felt my neck muscles had worked harder than usual. I thought this was because I had been working to keep my head aligned with my body. Your new advice will help me with this!

I have practised: "Use the shoulder blade stretch instead of using the shoulder". I felt "using the shoulder" as a stretch along my side (making me bend), compared to "using the shoulder blade" which I felt as a stretch in my upper back (keeping me straight). I hope I have understood correctly?

As you have advised, I am now focused on co-ordinating my stroke around the hand entry point. I have also been focused on keeping a straight body/head and in a line straight down the pool. Extending my spear as you explain, so as not to push my head, I feel will help me keep this line more easily!

Shinji, I am very grateful for your interest in my swimming and cannot thank you enough for your help. Thank you.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #17  
Old 02-03-2015
junkman junkman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiswimjapan View Post
Many TI beginners try to emphasize their insertion action, so they try to accelerate their hand at insertion.

But insertion itself creates little propulsion. Main propulsion comes from movement of the underwater hand. So you need to utilize the insertion hand as follows;

1) At insertion, you can utilize the potential energy which is kept in your hand.
You just drop your hand and you get enough acceleration to spear your hand.
You rather focus on the form of catch in the water so that you can use it as pivot of leverage.

The reason I try to keep my elbow high at insertion is to keep more potential energy.
It seems like all of your movements are forward with no out-of-line sideways motions. Perhaps keeping the elbow as high as you do requires very (relatively?) flexible shoulders.
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  #18  
Old 02-03-2015
tiswimjapan tiswimjapan is offline
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My shoulders are indeed flexible, but I try move my elbows below scapular plane and everybody can do it. I just stretch my armpit and it makes my form unique, but this one can be done for everybody, too. You increase the height of elbow gradually during recovery.
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Shinji's Swim Video: http://youtu.be/rJpFVvho0o4
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  #19  
Old 02-03-2015
Janos Janos is offline
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Shinji. you mentioned an experiment with straight arm recovery. Did you do this to increase the 'lever' length of your recovery arm and so add more forward impetus to your stroke over long distance or was it because you anticipate some sea swell in your next outdoor race?...or do you just find it easier?!

Janos
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  #20  
Old 02-04-2015
tiswimjapan tiswimjapan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
Shinji. you mentioned an experiment with straight arm recovery. Did you do this to increase the 'lever' length of your recovery arm and so add more forward impetus to your stroke over long distance or was it because you anticipate some sea swell in your next outdoor race?...or do you just find it easier?!

Janos
My straight arm recovery has two main objectives as follows;
1) Shifting my main propulsion from spearing to pulling
2) To keep up with faster tempo (less than 1.05 sec)

Since I have been able to spear my hands at 1.05 sec and now I can relax swimming at the tempo, I decided to use my traditional way for my marathon swim. I may change my style when I pursue more speed (such as swimming 1500m in 20 minutes.)
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Shinji Takeuchi
TI Japan Head Coach
the YouTube Swimmer
Shinji's Swim Video: http://youtu.be/rJpFVvho0o4

Last edited by tiswimjapan : 02-04-2015 at 05:42 PM.
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