Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Links and References
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 01-17-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default An expert opinion

The following is passed on with the caveat that all exercise may cause damage - some beneficial some harmful - but that if injury is present or indicated then the risk of harm is grossly amplified. The exercises in the FINA video might therefore be beneficial or hamful. Obvious?

Anyway, for the reckless out there - Grant?! ;) - here's what I've gathered from folk wot no, fwiw:

Quote:
1. The hitch hiker - this exercise in a healthy shoulder will encourage mid trapezius and rhomboid muscle activity. And swimmers use these muscles while elevating the arms out of the water during the butterfly and front crawl strokes.

2. The scapular push up - this exercises works the serratus anterior muscles in the phase of the push up plus. In a healthy shoulder this exercise will improve the stamina of this muscle.

3. The isolated shrug - the response to this is the same as that of number 1. above. I would like to add that while the models in this video illustrate all exercises well, during this particular exercise the model is winging the supporting side's scapula. i.e. the right shoulder. It is not the exercised side which is winging but the supporting arm.

.. and don't move before getting approval from a qualified professional with current, appropriate, applicable and ample liability insurance. That should cover me.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-17-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harling007 View Post
... Re. shoulder pain, that you mentioned, I found when I was doing longer swims preparing for Windermere (10 miles - 6 hours 20 minutes - it was hard - though no shoulder pain interestingly) that my right collar bone/shoulder area (breathing side mainly) got quite painful, especially when I swam three and four hour sessions without a break in the fortnight before it - silly idea I know). I found spearing deeper and working on bilateral have really helped. I am not very flexible and get stick shoulder anyway, swimming loosens me up a lot, but I suspect massage would help. Once I reduced the hours of continuous swimming the shoulder pain went completely after a week or so, and now I can swim an hour or so with no pain at all. I am sure cracking bilateral helped (I still swim unilaterally when I want to go faster).
Hiya

I replied to your PM only to say that I couldn't see anything in it apart from my PM to you.

Thanks for your answer here.

A ten mile swim is inconceivable for me!

My own pain was located more in the arm/shoulder than in the back/shoulder, so perhaps similar to yours? I've got rid of mine by changing my recovery. which I think was taking my arm behind the plane of my back. Watching a video of me recently and reading your post, I also wonder if spearing "deeply" prevents the arm drifting up above the plane of the back as the body rotates during the spear phase.

I found this page helpful in understanding the basics: http://www.shoulderdoc.co.uk/article.asp?section=492

Your post makes me (again!!!) determine to master bilateral breathing. Thanks.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-17-2015
Grant Grant is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Sooke, BC. Canada
Posts: 581
Grant
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
The following is passed on with the caveat that all exercise may cause damage - some beneficial some harmful - but that if injury is present or indicated then the risk of harm is grossly amplified. The exercises in the FINA video might therefore be beneficial or hamful. Obvious?

Anyway, for the reckless out there - Grant?! ;) - here's what I've gathered from folk wot no, fwiw:




.. and don't move before getting approval from a qualified professional with current, appropriate, applicable and ample liability insurance. That should cover me.
w

Good finding Talvi and very good CYAing. :0)
__________________
May we swim with ease at the speeds we choose.
Grant
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-27-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default A swimmer exercises

Coach Suzanne posted this link recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khoNsq-UAW8

They look like a pretty comprehensive set of exercise to me but again, comments welcome.

I'm off to give them a whirl as I am more and more convinced that my shoulders need strengthening, if possible!
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 01-27-2015 at 12:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-28-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 604
CoachDavidShen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
2. The scapular push up - this exercises works the serratus anterior muscles in the phase of the push up plus. In a healthy shoulder this exercise will improve the stamina of this muscle.
just a word about this statement. the fact that this person believes it's important to develop the stamina of this muscle leads me to believe he is old school PT. the issue here is that you may be able to build stamina of the muscle but you cannot guarantee its activation during the movement pattern in which you want it to activate it.

movement patterns unfortunately don't translate much at all. so doing scapular pushups to "strengthen" the serratus anterior won't do much at all in terms of its function while swimming. you have to encourage good scapular action so that the serratus will fire properly during the desired movement pattern. scapular pushups encourage poor scapular action even if you are "strengthening" the serratus anterior.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-28-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

I hear your point. So how to encourage correct scapular action?

FWIW the author is not expressing any belief in the importance of strengthening the muscle. She is only commenting on the exercises. I get the feeling from my correspondence with the professor (a consultant shoulder surgeon), who the author works for, that he "old school" but current. I get the feeling the author is somewhat younger.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-28-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 604
CoachDavidShen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I hear your point. So how to encourage correct scapular action?

FWIW the author is not expressing any belief in the importance of strengthening the muscle. She is only commenting on the exercises. I get the feeling from my correspondence with the professor (a consultant shoulder surgeon), who the author works for, that he "old school" but current. I get the feeling the author is somewhat younger.
well first, do you have any shoulder problems - soreness? pain? do you quickly jump on tightness?

overuse and leaving tightness around too long will increase the risk of compensations developing, which could cause your scapula to not function correctly during arm movements.

if you don't have any problems, then if it ain't broke, don't fix it! but i am a big fan generally of strengthening and with proper form of these exercises, you hopefully can never have shoulder problems while swimming. these can simply be planks, pushups, dips, pullups, ring rows.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-28-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
these can simply be planks, pushups, dips, pullups, ring rows.
CoachDavidShen: regarding the pullups, I have tried to modify my accustomed palm-facing-me pullups to palm-facing-away pullups to try and more closely approximate the pull in swimming. However, it seems to me that unless I can get my elbows high in the process, and thus get my forearms horizontal (that is, at the moment that the bar, my elbows and my shoulders reach the same level) I am not really getting the forearm angle that mimics the swimming pull.

Presently my elbow drops quite far below the bar by the time my shoulders get there. I don't seem to have the shoulder/chest strength to medially rotate the shoulders to get to the ideal position. Does this invalidate the usefulness of this pull-up for free-style catch and pull strengthening?

PS I understand that press ups out of the shallow end of the pool are ideal for strengthening the catch and pull motion, but I was hoping to get a useful dryland exercise for practicing at home.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-29-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 604
CoachDavidShen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
CoachDavidShen: regarding the pullups, I have tried to modify my accustomed palm-facing-me pullups to palm-facing-away pullups to try and more closely approximate the pull in swimming. However, it seems to me that unless I can get my elbows high in the process, and thus get my forearms horizontal (that is, at the moment that the bar, my elbows and my shoulders reach the same level) I am not really getting the forearm angle that mimics the swimming pull.

Presently my elbow drops quite far below the bar by the time my shoulders get there. I don't seem to have the shoulder/chest strength to medially rotate the shoulders to get to the ideal position. Does this invalidate the usefulness of this pull-up for free-style catch and pull strengthening?

PS I understand that press ups out of the shallow end of the pool are ideal for strengthening the catch and pull motion, but I was hoping to get a useful dryland exercise for practicing at home.
If I understand you correctly, I don't think pullups can allow your forearms to be positioned as if in an early vertical forearm form. I would think you'd be freakishly strong and double jointed to do it!

The reason i give that set of exercises is to work the muscles all around the shoulder at many angles of movement. This helps to balance out the muscles' strength so that there are no set of muscles that may overpower another. typically, our front /anterior muscles are much stronger than our posterior/rear muscles around the shoulders. this inbalance will cause your shoulders to bias to the front which will lead to impingement and other bad compensations and can lead to injury.

there have been attempts to strength the EVF catch via cables or using a lat pulldown machine. i'm not sure they are all that useful. better for you to achieve the correct movement pattern of the catch versus trying to be stronger in it. eventually you'll have the strength to catch/pull like that if you simply swim more using that form. the biggest problem i see with EVF is not strength but just motor control and timing to execute the move at the right time.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-30-2015
sclim sclim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,499
sclim
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
If I understand you correctly, I don't think pullups can allow your forearms to be positioned as if in an early vertical forearm form. I would think you'd be freakishly strong and double jointed to do it!
Oh, good. I thought there was something wrong with me or that I had missed a page in the manual somewhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
there have been attempts to strength the EVF catch via cables or using a lat pulldown machine. i'm not sure they are all that useful. better for you to achieve the correct movement pattern of the catch versus trying to be stronger in it. eventually you'll have the strength to catch/pull like that if you simply swim more using that form. the biggest problem i see with EVF is not strength but just motor control and timing to execute the move at the right time.
Good to hear that. I have embarked on an ambitious plan and self-directed program to achieve exactly that, after repeated apparently correct dryland rehearsals have failed to translate into consistent disciplined in-the-water high elbow catching, no mater how loudly I keep berating myself :-]
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.