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  #11  
Old 12-20-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
... If this tuned down version feels totally different from your normal kick, hmmmm, then its time to check your normal kick probably.
ZT, somehow you imagine I do not, am not checking my "normal kick"?!?!? You take my breath away! :D

Anyway, in light of your reply your previous advice seems academic (as I suspected) so I can now ignore it. Thanks for that. I would have bowed to your expertise and wasted many more sessions struggling with it.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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  #12  
Old 12-20-2014
Janos Janos is offline
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IMO the perfect two beat kick is actually half a butterfly stroke. Each kick is in time with the forward extension of your leading arm and uses up the first 45 degrees of rotation, which is then followed by the final 45 degrees supported by the hip drive. Which is the action practised in the underswitch drill, and acts against the catch using the momentum supplied by the arm extension, shoulder drop and kick.
The catch part of the butterfly, is the most powerful movement in swimming, so to me, it makes sense to try and replicate that in freestyle, even if it is with one arm, and the power is being applied in a rotational fashion rather than with undulation. Although, I suspect the rotation of the hips is perhaps a deliberate interpretation of undulation, and there may really be only one fundamental movement in swimming butterfly, breaststroke and freestyle. Where the hips supply the drive, and always act against the catch, with the arms and legs providing the initial propulsion.
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  #13  
Old 12-21-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
IMO the perfect two beat kick is actually half a butterfly stroke. Each kick is in time with the forward extension of your leading arm and uses up the first 45 degrees of rotation, which is then followed by the final 45 degrees supported by the hip drive. Which is the action practised in the underswitch drill, and acts against the catch using the momentum supplied by the arm extension, shoulder drop and kick.
The catch part of the butterfly, is the most powerful movement in swimming, so to me, it makes sense to try and replicate that in freestyle, even if it is with one arm, and the power is being applied in a rotational fashion rather than with undulation. Although, I suspect the rotation of the hips is perhaps a deliberate interpretation of undulation, and there may really be only one fundamental movement in swimming butterfly, breaststroke and freestyle. Where the hips supply the drive, and always act against the catch, with the arms and legs providing the initial propulsion.
Really interesting, helpful and insightful Janos. Thanks.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #14  
Old 12-21-2014
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
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I have been having trouble with excessive knee bend with my 2BK particularly when I am starting to get tired, so I am wondering what people see as the benefits of a straight leg kick over the knee bend one which I see more of.
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  #15  
Old 12-21-2014
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johynr]]] View Post
I have been having trouble with excessive knee bend with my 2BK particularly when I am starting to get tired, so I am wondering what people see as the benefits of a straight leg kick over the knee bend one which I see more of.
TI's 2B kick emphasizes balance, not propulsion. Knee bend varies somewhat depending upon individual characteristics - even among experts.

Here's a demo outlining the basics (using a flutter kick) - illustrating that "excessive" bend is not desirable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqQB6JgVNc4

Last edited by borate : 12-21-2014 at 03:30 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-21-2014
johynr]]] johynr]]] is offline
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Thanks for the video link. That certainly is not straight leg kicking.
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  #17  
Old 12-21-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borate View Post
... Here's a demo outlining the basics (using a flutter kick) - illustrating that "excessive" bend is not desirable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqQB6JgVNc4
Fantastic Borate. The pool edge practice really clears it up. Thanks!
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #18  
Old 12-21-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Great lesson in holding stroke integrity at the end of the ladies 10K. The two girls in front are looking a bit srappy at the end of 9.5K and the other girl just get's her head down, keeps the stroke longer and wins the event, great swimming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcI5YsRU1Uw
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  #19  
Old 12-21-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
So, what is the perfect 2bk to emulate, for folk battling to get under 2:00 pace?
For folks battling to get under 2:00 pace, the perfect 2bk to emulate is one that will lower drag resistance, since at that pace it is presumably what is holding you back the most. The biggest traps are a kicking motion which doesn't bring your bum at the surface, and opening the legs too wide and thus creating resistance.

As for knee bent, well a few things could be said. There's nothing intrinsically wrong in inducing some knee bent in the kicking, as long as the leg reaches full extension at some point (generally during the upbeat). Knee bent really becomes problematic when the leg keep this bent shape, with knees staying deep. So ideally, the leg should come back to the surface, and reach extension whilst moving back up to the surface. If this is achieved, then bending the knee a bit on the downbeat in order to improve angle of attack (ankle relative to the water surface) isn't a bad thing.

Kicking only 15cm wide is very difficult to achieve, and will not presumably happen without doing a lot of video feedback, or having incredible proprioception. As Andy mentioned, best is to aim for as little as possible, and get the best possible.

That said I'm working on a concept of an adjustable band, which would allow for setting the maximal amplitude width. Then it could be set to 15cm and thus provide with real time biofeedback. A first prototype was already achieved I could have something ready for sale by March 31th.
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  #20  
Old 12-21-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
That said I'm working on a concept of an adjustable band, which would allow for setting the maximal amplitude width. Then it could be set to 15cm and thus provide with real time biofeedback. A first prototype was already achieved I could have something ready for sale by March 31th.
Hahaha -- one of the first things that I thought about after recently understanding the 15 cm kick amplitude limit prescription by Coach Shinji was how I could try to achieve this performance, and the tools by which I might be assisted. A limiting cord or band around the ankles was what I initially thought of, and I wondered if one had already been devised by some coach somewhere and was already available. I was thinking of doing it myself out of surgical rubber tubing. Now I'll just wait a bit!
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