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  #1  
Old 12-19-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Default The perfect two beat kick?

Comparing Terry's exemplar kicking on the PMF DVD with Shinji's recent advice here, there is a wide range of "styles" to follow. So which direction to go in?

Shinji advises 150mm kicking, Terry's kick is double that. The knee shouldn't bend, yet Terry's does (and Mandy's). The kick should be timed with the spear, with hand entry, with elongation, at start of rotation ... the kick gives extra oomph, is just for balance, drives the rotation, merely extends the body ... etc.

So, what is the perfect 2bk to emulate, for folk battling to get under 2:00 pace?


p.s I can't find ZT's post on speed banding, but I'm pretty sure the advice differs from band to band.
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  #2  
Old 12-19-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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I think a lot of TI swimmers kick too much from the knee.
Thats my personal opinion.
Too get rid of this and ingrain the very basic aquatic source of power and timing instead of the instinctive baby crawling movement I think ir doesnt hurt to exagerate the kick movement but with a completely straight leg, opposite leg action.
This is hard on your stomach, butt and core. but once you got the hang of it you can deminish effort and amplitude a bit and let the knee bend a bit on the downkick.
All easier said then done, but basic core kicking is a weird movement thats never used on dryland so it has to be stamped in hard.

Go to the gym, see how much weights you can lift on the machine where you sit down and have to rotate your upperbody. Come back after half a year after integrating core driven kick in your swim and do this test again. You wont believe the result.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-19-2014 at 07:49 PM.
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  #3  
Old 12-19-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
Go to the gym, see how much weights you can lift on the machine where you sit down and have to rotate your upperbody.
Could you elaborate a little on the exact procedure this test (and, I presume, possibly also usable as an exercise?), please.
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  #4  
Old 12-20-2014
tomoy tomoy is offline
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I think we've talked around this topic in a different thread - but can't remember which. First off though, especially with timing, I think this can't be an isolated image of perfection. The kick is part of a large system of interlinked events, tied to other parts of the body, so much of it can... must vary for different physiques, stroke types etc.

Similarly, knee bend, as a term is highly variable. Knee bend with a back-kick is just bad, but knee bend as a result of a whipping downward action driven from the hips, can be hugely effective. I can imagine it being better than a straighter leg in some cases. We all know the power fins can add, and that flexible bendiness is very efficient. Suzanne has a post of a swimmer using these huge fins, swimming sideways underwater - her whole body is a whip, and knee bend is a part of that.

So I'm just here to murk the waters - is that a verb? Murkily? Having said that, I aim to mimic Shinji ;-)
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  #5  
Old 12-20-2014
ysun29x ysun29x is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Comparing Terry's exemplar kicking on the PMF DVD with Shinji's recent advice here, there is a wide range of "styles" to follow. So which direction to go in?

Shinji advises 150mm kicking, Terry's kick is double that. The knee shouldn't bend, yet Terry's does (and Mandy's). The kick should be timed with the spear, with hand entry, with elongation, at start of rotation ... the kick gives extra oomph, is just for balance, drives the rotation, merely extends the body ... etc.

So, what is the perfect 2bk to emulate, for folk battling to get under 2:00 pace?


p.s I can't find ZT's post on speed banding, but I'm pretty sure the advice differs from band to band.
Terry's kick is far more than 300mm. It is kind of scissor kick.

Shinjin's 150mm kicking is for balance or body rotation. Terry can not keep high body position like Shinji, his kicking range is much more bigger.And his kicking is more much powerful than Shinji's 150mm kicking.

ShinJin's old kicking style is also veyr powerful , but I think it is different with terry's kicking .
SHinjin does not bend his knee initiatively. Terry will bend his knee initiatively ,his knee is deeper than Shinjin and it is more powerful , but the streamline can not keep good shape.

If you want to kick like Shinjin ,do more kicking exercise

Last edited by ysun29x : 12-20-2014 at 03:59 AM.
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  #6  
Old 12-20-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Aim for a tight kick like Shinji and if you end up with something bigger but functional then pat yourself on the back.
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  #7  
Old 12-20-2014
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Terry's kick has continued to change over the years and is much smaller than in the PMF videos.
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  #8  
Old 12-20-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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On topic,
The kick doesnt seem very dependant on speed.
These girls are swimming 1.10min/100m pace for 10K.( faster than I can sprint, aaaaarrrgg) Most have a gentle (but effective) 2BKthat doesnt look out of place at a 1.50min/.100m pace.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcI5YsRU1Uw

If they speed up they also start to kick harder, but they can swim fast without excessive kicking. (Not to mention Paltrinieris pace on a 1.5 BK)

@Sclim
These isolated movement machines should be avoided and I wouldnt advise anyone to use them very often.
I just noticed by comparing strenght results(max load for 10 reps) between now and a year ago on these machines, that through swimming some muscles have improved in strenght compared to others relatively.
Standing/sitting lat pulldown, torso twist and general core sttrenght has improved. Pushing movement strenght has stayed the same.
The machine I was talking about
http://brendanhayden.com/2011/06/20/...ation-machine/

Last edited by Zenturtle : 12-20-2014 at 08:35 AM.
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  #9  
Old 12-20-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
On topic ...
LoL, thanks ZT :)

Interesting you think it is not to do with speed. At all? I can't tell what those girls are doing other than making 0.9 TT look really relaxed. At the moment, if I could do 0.9 TT then my pace would be 1:20/100m (NOT in OW though!)

So is the advice: timing as per the PMF DVD and movement as per Shinji?

viz the "stiff knee kick" ... really? I struggle to see how a boat with "leg paddles" ~(planks of wood and a simple reciprocating engine would generate propulsion from that as there would be as much pull backwards as push forwards. It confuses me! (nothing new there then!)

It is also a lot more effort to hold the leg stiff all the time and prevent the knee bending. I'll give it a shot and see what happens but my guess is I'll see no improvement for a lot more energy expenditure.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #10  
Old 12-20-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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This straight leg kicking isnt for speed.It will slow you down and take extra effort.
Its only to get a sense of the origin of the kick,
If you tune this kick down, allow a bit of kneebend it should be about right.
If this tuned down version feels totally different from your normal kick, hmmmm, then its time to check your normal kick probably.
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