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  #1  
Old 12-06-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Default its hard to handicap talent :)

http://www.nrk.no/sport/ramm-vs.-hen...sen-1.12078009

entertaining swimming duel from Norway - you don't need to speak the language to see what's going on. ha ha
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  #2  
Old 12-06-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Andy,

thank you! My wife and I laughed tears. Her hint for me: Learn the flip turn...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #3  
Old 12-06-2014
Janos Janos is offline
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So funny!...and so interesting too. Begs the question as to what he is doing that allows him to overcome the drag of those costumes. I think his balance and the superiority of the tumble turn over the open turn is what keeps him ahead?
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  #4  
Old 12-08-2014
Danny Danny is offline
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With his helmet on i think he is furthest behind the other swimmer when he first surfaces after the dive. After that he starts to catch up. If so, then the biggest price he is paying occurs in the initial dive.
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  #5  
Old 12-08-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
So funny!...and so interesting too. Begs the question as to what he is doing that allows him to overcome the drag of those costumes. I think his balance and the superiority of the tumble turn over the open turn is what keeps him ahead?
That's a simple question which yields a simple answer. His power allows him to overcome all this drag. Takes a lot of power to swim 25sec flat over 50m, so it's no surprise that he can overtake someone that can barely swim 45sec for the same distance.

What I mean by power, in this order, is 1) grip (without it, there can't be power, just slip) and then 2) ability to use the body to produce more power. Now, the context of this clip is very specific. It involves efforts that belong to the anaerobic capacity domain. And there, you have to be minimally gifted.

Anyone with no gift whatsoever but a decent technique can reach 30sec/50m (on a single shot sprint). That doesn't require any talent. From there, if you don't have the talent, you can shave about 2sec off. But it's very unlikely that someone without the anaerobic specific talent will shave 5sec to reach 25sec over 50m freestyle short course meter.

Balance has little to do with the results in this clip. That's because we're talking sprinting here. Sprinting doesn't really obey to the same rules when comes to balance, compared to distance swimming (which needs to be much more economical).

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-08-2014 at 05:11 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-09-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Balance has little to do with the results in this clip. That's because we're talking sprinting here. Sprinting doesn't really obey to the same rules when comes to balance, compared to distance swimming (which needs to be much more economical).
Could you elaborate, please, Charles? I thought when you are racing at such great speeds in the water, the drag is several degrees of magnitude higher than what we are experiencing at TI beginner (for me, anyway) speed. Therefore, even though they only have to finish to 50 m, the drag is so high a multiplier of any inefficiencies they might have in form or balance, I thought it would have still made a significant difference, and so would be worthwhile for him to pay a lot of attention to.
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  #7  
Old 12-09-2014
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Anyone with no gift whatsoever but a decent technique can reach 30sec/50m (on a single shot sprint). That doesn't require any talent.
Hi Charles,
just out of curiosity: from your coaching experience, does it also apply to adult learners (of course the question is open to the other coaches and experienced swimmers as well)? And if so, does it still apply to long distance swimmers without any sprint specific training?

You know, I like playing with your swim times prediction tool a lot: it currently tells me that I have an SDI=1.05 (e.g. 400m in 6:33 and 2500m in 45:00), and the results table it displays is very realistic for me. Now, if I keep practising as I do - focused on improving technique and aerobic capacity - and I keep my SDI steady at 1.05 or 1.06, in order to swim 50m in 30s (i.e. no gift, no talent) I should be swimming 100m in 1:02 and 1500m in under 18 minutes: that's so fast, I don't believe it can be reachable from anyone with no gift but a decent technique. So, in order to reach 50m in 30s for a non particularly gifted swimmer, does it perhaps require to switch to sprint specific training and, as a consequence, to get an higher SDI (around 1.09) in the end?

Thanks,
Salvo
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  #8  
Old 12-09-2014
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Well I hit a four year PB in the 50 this week of 37.5; but on the subject of power I can understand from this picture why Roy Burch might be 16.5 seconds ahead of me before talent comes into it?? :)
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  #9  
Old 12-09-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Could you elaborate, please, Charles? I thought when you are racing at such great speeds in the water, the drag is several degrees of magnitude higher than what we are experiencing at TI beginner (for me, anyway) speed. Therefore, even though they only have to finish to 50 m, the drag is so high a multiplier of any inefficiencies they might have in form or balance, I thought it would have still made a significant difference, and so would be worthwhile for him to pay a lot of attention to.
What I meant is that whilst sprinting, a lot of water is pushed downward early into the stroke, which kills balance. Upperbody gets higher over the water. Strong flutter kick compensates and therefore elevates the lower body as well. In other words, the balance when sprinting is artificially kept thanks to a strong "elevating" flutter kick.

Cool thing is that all this is a way to lower the drag resistance which would otherwise increase if the whole body was kept lower in the water.

What I'm describing can be monitored by looking at how exposed the back of a sprinter ends up being
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  #10  
Old 12-09-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi Charles,
just out of curiosity: from your coaching experience, does it also apply to adult learners (of course the question is open to the other coaches and experienced swimmers as well)? And if so, does it still apply to long distance swimmers without any sprint specific training?

You know, I like playing with your swim times prediction tool a lot: it currently tells me that I have an SDI=1.05 (e.g. 400m in 6:33 and 2500m in 45:00), and the results table it displays is very realistic for me. Now, if I keep practising as I do - focused on improving technique and aerobic capacity - and I keep my SDI steady at 1.05 or 1.06, in order to swim 50m in 30s (i.e. no gift, no talent) I should be swimming 100m in 1:02 and 1500m in under 18 minutes: that's so fast, I don't believe it can be reachable from anyone with no gift but a decent technique. So, in order to reach 50m in 30s for a non particularly gifted swimmer, does it perhaps require to switch to sprint specific training and, as a consequence, to get an higher SDI (around 1.09) in the end?

Thanks,
Salvo
Well this is an excellent question, and one which will allow me to add some nuances.

I wrote that it requires no particular talent to swim 30s. That doesn't mean it's not fast. Anyone who's not "there yet" shouldn't worry, unless you're young and aiming for competing at a relatively high level.

And that statement is only valid for pure sprinting, i.e. unplug the TT, forget about technique for 50m and swim as if you were pursued by a shark, with a 6b flutter kick and aiming for the highest possible rate.

Now, I still have an issue teaching sprinting to distance folks having no previous significant swimming background. I think I can state that aside from a few rares cases, I fail. Even my most motivated folks do not achieve the speed I believe they should. I am yet to understand why. They mostly end up hanging a bit below 35sec and a bit below 1:15 for 100m. That's not enough.

This is very frustrating, as most of these contenders are far more gifted than I physically. Even out of shape, I can swim 30 and 1:05. With minimal training it becomes 28.some / 1:02.some roughly. I still don't understand, and blame it on the mystery of swimming. I'm sincere here.

Now an important thing related to my statement, this is all dependent on age and gender. I haven't ran (though I should I guess) any statistics on a significantly large volume of data (although I could). In order to make an opinion as to how your performances (in general) compare to that of others competing in the same Age Group, our Canadian Masters database does an excellent job http://mymsc.ca/Competition.jsp#results
Most meets are regional scope. You may use La Coupe de Montreal as an example, since it provides with a fair sample.

Now the interesting bit in your question, how to use the SDI to guide you. 1.05 is fairly flat as an index. It usually means either of 3 things: a) Maybe your sprinting isn't real sprinting, therefore your index is artificially flat for lack of being able to go optimally fast over 50/100m, b) technique prevents you from going faster or c) you're in a heck of a good distance swimming shape.

Note that a) and b) are very similar. If your index is flat because of A or B, then I believe it becomes very important to do just like Andy, and set a very good focus on developing sprinting. Your distance performances will likely inherit from this work, although the index might never get back to such a flat value, without getting into a great distance shape.

If your index is flat because of c), then it's another story. And there working on the shorter more intense end of the spectrum could literally be counter productive for the distance side. If you ended up building fitness on top of a faulty technique (i.e. building C on top of A), then it's as if you didn't have C.

In other words, as you may imagine, Sprint/Distance Index tries to tell you what your balance between anaerobic and aerobic is. At some point, work becomes mutually exclusive. If you improve the distance end, the sprint end will deteriorate, vice versa. But it may take a while before you reach this point, since most carry significant technique flaws preventing them from swimming faster. One final thing I may add, I am yet to use Weight resistance as a means to improve sprinting performances. Maybe that's why I keep failing, I donno.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-09-2014 at 03:29 PM.
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