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  #11  
Old 11-20-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Hmm, I can't seem to get my link image button to work.

I go to the website I want (the Finis.com site), select the page with the picture I want, then "copy" the HTML address. Then, in my reply post, I click the "link image" which brings up a little window to paste the web address. I "paste" my copied address so that's the only thing left in the little window, and I'm done, right? But it didn't seem to work.

Until I figure out how to do this, you'll have to click on the two links to see what I'm talking about:

http://www.finisinc.com/equipment/te...s-snorkel.html

http://www.finisinc.com/equipment/te...e-snorkel.html

Maybe it's better this way, because you can navigate the page; I'm not sure the image method will allow you to do that.

Last edited by sclim : 11-20-2014 at 12:12 AM.
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  #12  
Old 11-20-2014
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Default Question Regarding Snorkel

I use a regular snorkel. When face down in the water, I angle the tube straight up.

Is there really a good reason to use the Finis type of snorkel?

Sherry
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  #13  
Old 11-20-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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I never thought about it -- I don't have a regular snorkel, although I have used them years ago. I just bought a Finis swimming training snorkel without too much speculation because it was recommended. Having bought one, I see that the way it is aligned, with a strap holding it to the forehead and curving up over the top of the head, makes it symmetrical, so it is equally forgiving/unforgiving of body roll, whereas, I would imagine, the regular snorkel, being on one side would submerge sooner with a roll to that side.

(Edit: On re-reading this, I just realised that with the snorkel tube on the right side of your head, a turn of the head to the right, either due to uncompensated body roll or in the manner of a breathing head/neck rotation, forgetting that you don't actually need to do this now, would actually raise the tip of the snorkel. It's a roll to the left that is unforgiving).

I just "fixed" my Finis Swimmer's Snorkel; I immersed the 45 degree bend in a huge pot of boiling water, and found that this softened the plastic, so that I could easily bend it to more like a 90 degree curve (or slightly less), then I held it under a cold tap so it cooled and hardened in this new position. I pinched the tube sideways slightly as I bent it, so the tube aperture didn't collapse and flatten out as the curve bent more acutely. The process was quite forgiving, and I initially pinched too hard and got a slight indentation of my thumbprint -- but quick re-immersion in the boiling water and some judicious squeezing here and there removed the indentation, and I was able to readjust the bend to my liking.

Voided the warrantee, no doubt, lol.

Now I don't know how it will actually work in the pool -- although the last portion of the tube appears to be sticking straight up when my head is flat, I'm not sure I have enough altitude or height of tube tip to clear the surface when I am at "periscope depth". I realise now that the prior 45 degree tube angle, with the tip reaching forward of my head in swimming position resulted effectively in an extra couple of inches of elevation when I lifted my head, because the pivot point was my neck. Oh well, the point was to try and devise a solution that worked without lifting my head at all, so I can't lose. Maybe this will force me to learn to swim with my body and head still aligned but sitting slightly higher (i.e. whole body and head, still horizontally balanced) just below or at the water surface. Or die.

Last edited by sclim : 11-21-2014 at 10:28 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-20-2014
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
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I've always wanted to try a Finis snorkel. (I would have used the one with the shorter tube, by the way).

But I feel now like I'm (finally) at the point, where I feel fairly good about my stroke technique and streamlining (although they still need a lot of fine-tuning!).

And now I need to concentrate on breathing. Ultimately that's where it all leads up to.

It's funny because I have one of the total immersion books and there's precious little about breathing in it. Ok, you mean I have to buy yet another set of books/DVDs?

I find working on stroke technique and streamlining to be about 25% of the effort of full stroke with breathing being 75% of the effort -- but that's me, I guess.

When I finally incorporated bilateral breathing into whole stroke, everything else went to hell. The work was trying to bring everything else back in sync while breathing and not suck water. Believe me, I spent many months sucking a lot of pool water.

I tend to be low in the water, so that is part of the problem.

Edit: Just wanted to add that there is a gentleman in the pool where I go who regularly uses a Finis snorkel because arthritis has limited his neck rotation...but he wanted to continue swimming for exercise. Gotta do what ya gotta do!

Last edited by novaswimmer : 11-20-2014 at 05:54 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-24-2014
sclim sclim is offline
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Looking at the snorkel section of the forum, the prevailing fear of the detractors seems to be that it delays the development of good breathing technique. I can understand this fear, but it doesn't apply at all when you understand that the use of the snorkel is nothing to do with development of breathing but to develop good alignment during the intervening strokes in between the breathing strokes. You never assume breathing doesn't have to be learned at some point. Just don't have to deal with the breathlessness and complex movements required for economical breathing at the same time as learning to pay exquisite attention to the minute details and subtle balance sensations required for perfect alignment.

The fear is something like criticising Terry's initial exercises in TI for the water phobic -- just stand in the shallow end of the pool, then lie face down (or do a skate drill) in the water, and let the water cradle you. When you run out of breath, just stand up and breathe. ("But you'll never learn to swim that way....you gotta learn to breathe!")
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  #16  
Old 11-24-2014
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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For those interested in perfecting breathing skills: maybe you have tried to belly breathe while swimming (guess coach David Shen posted something about it). For sure it's better than chest breathing in general, and it's much easier to achieve in dryland than it is in water. Well, a snorkel can help a lot here (to me it did at least), since it lets you focus on how you are breathing (ie with belly, with chest, how long you're breathing out, how often you need to breathe in etc), having the air available all the time. The key of course is to imprint this kind of self awareness and make it permanent.
In that, not only I find the snorkel does not interfere with developing breathing technique, but it can even take it to the next level.
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  #17  
Old 11-24-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
I use a regular snorkel. When face down in the water, I angle the tube straight up.

Is there really a good reason to use the Finis type of snorkel?

Sherry
If I'd had a normal available I'd have used it. When I used to go snorkeling I never found a problem so I share your confusion Now, having used the Finis quite a lot at one point, comparing the distant experiences I don't see the superiority of it except perhaps that it creates less drag. If you get one pls come back and tell us how you find the comparison.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #18  
Old 11-24-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Come on Slim, be our guinea pig.
If i would do it all over I think I would use the snorkel much more.
The swimming skill is build up using building blocks that are mastered and put together.
Why not develop whole stroke with a snorkel as a building block and add the breathing block as the last one?
Breathing is such a distraction, it slows down the learning time of all the other blocks, so maybe in the end its faster to take a little longer time to learn breathing, but speed up the learning of all the other skills.
I can imagine even building quite some fitness and repetition with the snorkel to really ingrain good stroke mechanics, so that its hardwired very strongly.
Adding breathing will be tough, but its unikely the good stroke hardwiring will vanish quickly.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-24-2014 at 10:25 AM.
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  #19  
Old 11-24-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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An interesting experiment ZT but ... I think the building block analogy is flawed.

I began learning to ride a bicycle by trying to stay upright on it as it sped off down a small grassy hill. This led to staying upright as it trundled across the flat ground after the descent and it was as part of this that I learned how staying upright was affected by how I steered. Into this mix grew the thread of pedaling as I wanted to go further, and I learned how it affected balance and steering.

This to me models my learning to swim. I could have continued practicing on my three-wheeler trying to imprint pefect posture and so on, but I was 3 yrs old. I wanted to graduate. With hindsight I can't see that prolonging the three-wheeler experience would have helped me with the two-wheeler experience. I was simply stunned by the difference between the two. And I was confused by my falling off.

There seems to me to be no easy way to ditch the "training wheels". The "step up" is always a shock, and swimming seems no excpetion. Because the water provides so little purchase, the movement of any part of our body when suspended in water results in the movement of every other part of our body. It is simply impossible to micromanage every one of the thousands of elements involved. Although I knew very well how to sit upright and pedal about on a three wheeler that didn't help me much when it came to being on two wheels.

Personally, if my cycling ability was equivalent to my swimming ability I wouldn't be safe on the roads. The integration of my balance, steering and pedaling would not be sufficiently coordinated. Although I can "cycle" around the garden and "pedal" up and down small hills, I am still very "wobbly".

Before I could even ride a bike I used to love snorkeling at the seaside - floating face down in rock pools, hanging in the water, gliding slowly and watching the fish below. The great thing for me about the SG etc was being given permission to do it as part of an authentic swimming technique. I can see how it can be an eye opener though.

My detractions from drills and tools is only and simply from my experience of how they impact on my whole stroke. When I got my Finis snorkel for instance I swam 2km+ sessions, solely with the snorkel and with one sole focus. My sessions were frequently like that, for a period of perhaps six weeks.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #20  
Old 11-24-2014
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Its hard to believe, but I am actually partially involved in the design of a retracttable add-on bycicle training wheel construction for elderly people.
Some get balancing problems and dont dare to ride the bycicle anymore.
We build some prototypes and tested them ourself and seeked some elderly victims to try them out.
I can tell you, 2 wheeled and three(or 4) wheeled vehicles differ in balancing like night and day.
The leaning in corners of a 2 wheeler doesnt exist on a 3 wheeler. To get inthe lean you have to first steer in the other direction where the cormer is going to get the bike fall in the corner. This is an unconscious action, that is confusing when applied on a treewheeler.
In short, the step between 2 and 3 wheel is like walking on 1 or 2 legs. Totally different balance wise.
In an ideal world breathing is only adding a no no movement of the head to the rest of the movement pattern.
More like texting on your phone while riding a bike,

Dont know what problems to expect when someone only swims with a snorkel and wants to learn to normally breath after a year,
I can imagine the swimmer gets used to a rather low head position, and when the head is turned from this position the mouht is still underwater.
Breathing without breaking the axis at a low swimming speed is a very difficult skill. Even elites often cant manage this.
From a pace of 2 min/100, or faster breathing behind the bowwave becomes a lot easier.
If the swimmer has build enough endurance to swim faster than 2min/100m he can start to add breathing,
Just like a plane he is avoiding dropping below stall speed to learn breathing movements,
Later when breathing above stall speed is mastered, he possibly can practice more difficult slow speed breaathing.

Anyone tried this method?
If noit, dont say its impossible.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 11-24-2014 at 05:39 PM.
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