stroke efficiency, slippage, and muscle recruitment

[andyinnorway]

Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier

I like to tackle on 2 diff rates at the time. The current, and the next. And sometimes the last. I find that switching back and forth raises awareness.

The idea of reverting to last is that you sometimes find yourself increasing your score (ie in your case at 1.05) after having worked for a while at 1.02

we're on the same page a bit there then as in not waiting until I get 100% to move to the next TT setting, perhaps 90% is too high. and as you say, you can also go back to the previous and retest. (especially since for me it's a holding rhythm challenge under aerobic state - rather than an SPL one)

[Talvi]

Eavesdropping on the grown-ups, and playing with the chart ... do the results it extrapolates to for slower stroke rates apply e.g for 35 strk/min (1.84: 0.7, 2:13 / 133) ??

[CharlesCouturier]

Originally Posted by Talvi

Eavesdropping on the grown-ups, and playing with the chart ... do the results it extrapolates to for slower stroke rates apply e.g for 35 strk/min (1.84: 0.7, 2:13 / 133) ??

Is this question related to my table? Because I don't understand the question if it's the case. Oh ok, I get it. Yes, an arm span of 1m84, 0.7x (holy grail) at 35spm gives you a pace of 2min13/100m.

[Talvi]

Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier

... Oh ok, I get it. Yes, an arm span of 1m84, 0.7x (holy grail) at 35spm gives you a pace of 2min13/100m.

My stroke is clearly way off Holy-Grail quality but hose are my numbers (spm +/- 1, time e.g 2:00-2:10). I don't understand... any suggestions?

[andyinnorway]

Originally Posted by Talvi

My stroke is clearly way off Holy-Grail quality but hose are my numbers (spm +/- 1, time e.g 2:00-2:10). I don't understand... any suggestions?

I think it would suggest that you are as efficient as you would need want to be at that stroke rate so if you want to go quicker, click the tempo trainer down (so stroke rate up) to the next level.

The numbers probably help me in my situation out more as they directly answer my question of is 19SPL too high for a stroke rate of 54. Charles' chart tells me that my stroke length for my height and wingspan isn't olympic but it is above average for age group triathlete so I'm okay to train within those parameters.

[CharlesCouturier]

Originally Posted by Talvi

My stroke is clearly way off Holy-Grail quality but hose are my numbers (spm +/- 1, time e.g 2:00-2:10). I don't understand... any suggestions?

Yeah, Andy was spot on. Means that (assuming this to be your sustainable pace though, that table is all about sustainable pace) you can hold 2:00/100m @ 35rpm with an arm span of 1m84, clearly, you're exceeding the holy grail of propelling efficiency. If speed is a concern (and don't feel bad if it is not), then increasing the rate would seem to be a good option.

[Talvi]

Thanks guys appreciated. I'm am confident that last week for instance, over 300m I did an average of 2:28 @32spm and an average of 2:25 @34 over 950m. I've checked and double checked.

I've been aiming for 2:00. It just "feels" like that pace (at least) is only just out of reach, for the same SPL. But now ... I'm wondering. Could it be I am being too demanding?!?!? But surely that can't be right either!? :(

So, I looked to a role model .. that Phelps clip of his langorous warm up. I timed it best I could and he's doing 25m (?) in about 16 s+ with 10 strokes. His time for nine full strokes is 12.68s (i.e excluding turn). So his rate is either around 42spm or 36spm depending on how you measure it. This "slow" swimming is my (unrealistic) goal. It's in the zone of my stroke rate (my Garfield to his panther) yet he's at a 1:06 pace and looks like he could swim the Channel on no more than a light breakfast.

My puzzling is over how this fits into the chart?

[andyinnorway]

Originally Posted by Talvi

Thanks guys appreciated. I'm am confident that last week for instance, over 300m I did an average of 2:28 @32spm and an average of 2:25 @34 over 950m. I've checked and double checked.

I've been aiming for 2:00. It just "feels" like that pace (at least) is only just out of reach, for the same SPL. But now ... I'm wondering. Could it be I am being too demanding?!?!? But surely that can't be right either!? :(

So, I looked to a role model .. that Phelps clip of his langorous warm up. I timed it best I could and he's doing 25m (?) in about 16 s+ with 10 strokes. His time for nine full strokes is 12.68s (i.e excluding turn). So his rate is either around 42spm or 36spm depending on how you measure it. This "slow" swimming is my (unrealistic) goal. It's in the zone of my stroke rate (my Garfield to his panther) yet he's at a 1:06 pace and looks like he could swim the Channel on no more than a light breakfast.

My puzzling is over how this fits into the chart?

Hmmm not sure either.

To me it looks like he is hitting the 10yd marker with stroke number 1,

I get his stroke rate at 44 and reckon he covers 14/15yds in 9 strokes. That's about 1.5+ yds per stroke. If you said 1.4m and Phelps has a typical elite wingspan of 2.00m then that would put him bang on 0.7 efficiency, but it's hard to see any concrete data from this video footage as we don't really know the pool length or exactly where he starts his first stroke?

[andyinnorway]

Originally Posted by Talvi

Thanks guys appreciated. I'm am confident that last week for instance, over 300m I did an average of 2:28 @32spm and an average of 2:25 @34 over 950m. I've checked and double checked.

I've been aiming for 2:00. It just "feels" like that pace (at least) is only just out of reach, for the same SPL. But now ... I'm wondering. Could it be I am being too demanding?!?!? But surely that can't be right either!? :(

So, I looked to a role model .. that Phelps clip of his langorous warm up. I timed it best I could and he's doing 25m (?) in about 16 s+ with 10 strokes. His time for nine full strokes is 12.68s (i.e excluding turn). So his rate is either around 42spm or 36spm depending on how you measure it. This "slow" swimming is my (unrealistic) goal. It's in the zone of my stroke rate (my Garfield to his panther) yet he's at a 1:06 pace and looks like he could swim the Channel on no more than a light breakfast.

My puzzling is over how this fits into the chart?

Might be easier to look at Sun Yang's competition stats. He does 28 strokes and swims about 42 metres in that time (7 metre push off, 1 metre tumble turn), that means a massive 150cm distance per stroke. Sun is also really tall at 1.98 so if he has a wingspan of 2m, then his world class efficiency at a nudge over 60 strokes per minute is 0.75 according to Charles' chart.

[CharlesCouturier]

Originally Posted by andyinnorway

Might be easier to look at Sun Yang's competition stats. He does 28 strokes and swims about 42 metres in that time (7 metre push off, 1 metre tumble turn), that means a massive 150cm distance per stroke. Sun is also really tall at 1.98 so if he has a wingspan of 2m, then his world class efficiency at a nudge over 60 strokes per minute is 0.75 according to Charles' chart.

Yeap, I think I had calculated his metrics pretty much along the same lines. I'd expect Phelps warmup glidy swim (which shouldn't be emulated I believe, but hey...) to be even more efficient. However, this is not his normal stroke. That's just sloppy glidy relaxed fit sort of stroke.

For what it's worth, since I'm far from being the dps expert here, I don't think it is a good thing to aim for this level of efficiency.