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  #11  
Old 11-27-2013
Superfly Superfly is offline
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Superfly, my analogy to catch-up is only when the non-stroking arm is forward. In this case, the stroking shoulder is always in an up position, which makes a good catch very easy.
If the shoulder is always in an up position then you're NOT rotating. You need to lower the shoulder for proper body rotation in Freestyle. It is impossible to practice good Freestyle technique if your non-stroking arm is extended completely forward.

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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
You said earlier that, when the other arm is forward this is a good drill for butterfly. Can you explain this? I presume one then uses a dolphin kick, instead of 6 beat and then undulates. Is this what you mean?
What happens when you stroke with the other arm extended completely forward? Your body naturally rises. This is Newtonian action/re-action physics (with Bernoulli's principle thrown in for good measure). The body then sinks as gravity takes over and then rises as it becomes buoyant again. Gravity and buoyancy know only one direction: down and up. Body undulation (AKA: dolphin kick) is an efficient way to convert that potential energy into forward momentum. You can use a flutter kick instead but that would be far less efficient for this.

We can analyze this and exchange messages ad nauseam. However, there's only one way to understand this. Go swim!

Last edited by Superfly : 11-27-2013 at 04:12 PM.
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  #12  
Old 11-27-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I don't understand this Danny. I wasn't referring to weight-shift but to blanace along the longitudinal axis (the line of your direction of travel i.e head to toe).

Rotation is involved in longitudinal balance :- as the shoulder exits the water buoyancy is lost (weight is increased at that point) but I think this is relatively minor compared to the effect of moving the entire arm from a position north of the head to a position south of it and also because the change in weight is closer to your CoG and so the rotational force are smaller for any given vertical force..
You are right Talvi, I misspoke. The balance should shift to the feet. However, I was having more difficulty rotating as well. Not sure why. My original thought was that with two hands, as I spear forward the other hand is already in front in the catch and can be used to help in rotation. When it is on the hip it can't. Not sure if using the catch hand to help in rotation amounts to a stroke problem or not. Also not sure that this is why I had more difficulty rotating. All interesting questions...
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  #13  
Old 11-27-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
You are right Talvi, I misspoke. The balance should shift to the feet. However, I was having more difficulty rotating as well. Not sure why. My original thought was that with two hands, as I spear forward the other hand is already in front in the catch and can be used to help in rotation. When it is on the hip it can't. Not sure if using the catch hand to help in rotation amounts to a stroke problem or not. Also not sure that this is why I had more difficulty rotating. All interesting questions...
the rotation is initiated by the opposite leg kicking and the weight of the recovering arm getting ready to enter.

initiating rotation by using the other arm to pull/push defeats part of the purpose of this drill. Removing that arm forces you to find the core muscles, and find gravity and find the anchor in the opposite leg that helps you rotate. That frees up the other arm when it is ready to enter again for an effective stroke.
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  #14  
Old 11-27-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
...Removing that arm forces you to find the core muscles, and find gravity and find the anchor in the opposite leg that helps you rotate. That frees up the other arm when it is ready to enter again for an effective stroke.
That sounds like a really nice exercise to me CoachSuzanne. I'd thought the NAD was only borderline TI though? Is you recommendation for it: 2bk, one arm at the side, and the other dong a normal stroke?
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  #15  
Old 11-28-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
That sounds like a really nice exercise to me CoachSuzanne. I'd thought the NAD was only borderline TI though? Is you recommendation for it: 2bk, one arm at the side, and the other dong a normal stroke?
What's "borderline" TI?

NAD, named as such, is Charles' baby I believe. One armed swimming in the way I have desribed and you have restated, is a very good drill.
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Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #16  
Old 11-28-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
the rotation is initiated by the opposite leg kicking and the weight of the recovering arm getting ready to enter.

initiating rotation by using the other arm to pull/push defeats part of the purpose of this drill. Removing that arm forces you to find the core muscles, and find gravity and find the anchor in the opposite leg that helps you rotate. That frees up the other arm when it is ready to enter again for an effective stroke.
Your explanation is very helpful Suzanne. Thanks!
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  #17  
Old 11-28-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
What's "borderline" TI?

NAD, named as such, is Charles' baby I believe. One armed swimming in the way I have desribed and you have restated, is a very good drill.
Great!

To my way of thinking NAD and the drill you have described overlap. I had understood the NAD was not a TI thing but as you put it: "Charles' baby". So what I was getting at was why's one ok and the other's not - in terms of TI not in terms of swimming generally?
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #18  
Old 11-28-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Great!

To my way of thinking NAD and the drill you have described overlap. I had understood the NAD was not a TI thing but as you put it: "Charles' baby". So what I was getting at was why's one ok and the other's not - in terms of TI not in terms of swimming generally?
Someone mentioned my baby?

Here's my non ti approved take on the relation between NAD and Single Arm Drill. It's covered between minute 0:00 and 1:55 roughly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGUNNrpny2U

Again, these thoughts clash with what we typically hear or read about this drill. And the reason for the discrepancy is that I treat all these drills as separate components of a swim LEGO block game. Add an arm to NAD (every cycle) you achieve Single Arm. Breathe on the opposite side you end up with UNCO. Stroke every 3 instead of every 2 you achieve NAD-3. Wear a pull during NAD and you achieve Isolated Rotation. Add an arm and you're now performing pulled single arm drill, etc..... 2bk, 6bk. All LEGO blocks.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 11-28-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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  #19  
Old 11-29-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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I suppose nothing is inherently "good" or "bad", however the way I teach it is a much slower, more deliberate movement with a pause in the glide position in order to feel the body rising back to the surface after entry...thise play between sinking & bouyancy is a key in getting struggle free breathing working well as far as timing. When 2 arms are added back in there is much less amplitude...so the subtleness of how recovery causes the body to sink is easier to miss. But this is a key part to tune into to make several improvements.

When I watch videos of the NAD drill or Charles' single arm, there is a lot of rotational momentum in the drill and not much time to feel the things that I am bringing out of the drill.

Neither is good or bad. Charles teaches his in his system and it works well for him. I teach mine in my system and it works well in mine.

In reality I do and try all drills for many reasons (any play in the water is fun), but in teaching swim skills it appears to me that certain drills and certain ways to approach them will work better for my swimmers.
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
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USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #20  
Old 11-29-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
... the way I teach it is a much slower, more deliberate movement with a pause in the glide position in order to feel the body rising back to the surface after entry...this play between sinking & bouyancy is a key in getting struggle free breathing working well as far as timing...
Would you expand on this a bit CoachSuzanne? I understand the sink/rise buoyancy focus, which is a real eyeopener for me (D'oh!), but would appreciate any explanation/expansion you could give on how this best locks into the timing of breathing - and timing generally.



p.s thanks for the clip Charles - it's really fascinating (and love that feed in shot!)
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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