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  #11  
Old 10-29-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Charles
I marvel that you were able to locate - or recall from memory - a post Ian Smith made to that forum over 7 years ago! It was moving to read his words today, nearly a year after his untimely death from heart attack.
I'm happy to report, having returned from a coach training in the UK earlier this week, that his mantle of leadership has been taken up most ably by Jai Evans (Ian's 'right hand' for most of the time he led TI-UK) and Tracey Baumann, and that the coaches Ian trained are a most impressive and strikingly impassioned group. They all honor his memory.
So glad to hear. TBH, I was worried a bit about how TI-UK would survive and continue developing.

A month or so before quitting us, Ian had sent me a friendly gift, a TI-Butterfly DVD. My home DVD reader had always refused reading it.

I just tried it in my new Mac, it works perfectly.

And he was right once again. Your hand led body undulation is very similar to my no arm drill. Hear it Ian? You were right! LOL
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  #12  
Old 10-29-2012
craig.arnold@gmail.com craig.arnold@gmail.com is offline
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To the OP.

I was swimming this morning, my focus was on hand position. It just didn't feel right after all my sets.

Eventually after about 600m of feeling terrible I stopped to think.

My stroke wasn't right. A clue was that I wasn't breathing properly on my left hand side.

Back to basics. I realised my head wasn't relaxed in the water. Once I relaxed my head I found I could breathe again on my left. Once I could breath I could relax my shoulders. Once my shoulders were relaxed I could get my arms down into the right positions. Suddenly my stroke was ten times better.

So I am beginning to think that I may need to follow a routine in my warm-up progressing from one element to the next before I can start to practice the more advanced elements of the stroke.

So here's my tip. When your stroke is feeling bad - it's because there is something BASIC you are not doing properly, and it's probably balance related, start with your head and neck, progress from there.
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  #13  
Old 10-29-2012
flychick flychick is offline
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I'll second that. I've long been of the opinion that most stroke issues can be traced back to a problem with the head.
Nicki
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  #14  
Old 10-30-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
Default Thank you very much...

.. to all who took time to find answers for me!

I'll try to add some minor points, so this will become a little longer post...

@Charles,
you gave a detailed explanation of the physiological background what happens, when getting weak and/or tired by time and/or tempo. What would be interesting is, how to handle this when it appears. Where to change the focus to then? For example: A splashy elbow sneaks in. That can be repaired, when focused on it. But while repairing it the head is lifted too much for breathe. That could be repaired too, but if the third malfunction at same time appears the repair work becomes quite difficult. I'd best like a universal focus for repairing all flaws or hold a stroke which could be TI-called. (Wishes should be allowed...)

I'm afraid, Terry would say: Go to pool edge take five zen breaths and start with an acceptable stroke.... aarg, but when there are only 200m left to the strived 1500m? What's your tip, Charles?

@Terry,
I luckyly never had a swim coach who told me to get harder. Seems to be good for TI... And I don't strive to go beyond my limits anymore. But I aspire to extend them... Your tip to think about nothing, when the flaws appear one after another seems to be good at my desk; but when in water the TI focuses are so present that this has to become another, somewhat contradictory focus...

Come back to that splashing elbow. When it appears my body tells me: That little splash does not matter and it tells me, with that splash I'm saving energy for the stroke... But TI convinced me, every splash is wastin energy away from a good stroke... Same when the recovery arms starts with little useless(?) tensions... Should I be happy to be on the right TI Kaizen way, because at least I realise the upcoming flaws, even if I'm not able to repair all of them at once?

PS: Remember Herigel's book when my Judo master recommended it 45 years ago...

@ Andy,
well, I'm afraid not being enough karate kid in my swim. Sometimes I'm even confused with myself not finding the right felt decisions... That's one of the reasons I find this forum so helpful. Tell some other things to my confusion in the other thread...

@ Suzanne,
nothing to argue against! In my age I think there has to be balance between minimal fitnes well felled neurological satisfaction. I'm very happy to have achieved 1500++m continues freestyle. And I'm even happy, although my stroke falls appart in time more or less. And I'm glad TI made this possible and further progress an interesting journey which feels good even in outlook to my next years. 18 months ago swimming was just a necessary ultra boring thing for me. (There TI changed large parts of my life in principle.)

@ Grant,
better words, than I'm able to write. Full on your side! Thanks!

Best regards,
Werner
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  #15  
Old 10-30-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
@Charles,
you gave a detailed explanation of the physiological background what happens, when getting weak and/or tired by time and/or tempo. What would be interesting is, how to handle this when it appears. Where to change the focus to then? For example: A splashy elbow sneaks in. That can be repaired, when focused on it. But while repairing it the head is lifted too much for breathe. That could be repaired too, but if the third malfunction at same time appears the repair work becomes quite difficult. I'd best like a universal focus for repairing all flaws or hold a stroke which could be TI-called. (Wishes should be allowed...)
Hi Werner, well first I think you noticed that you received a bunch of (almost contradictory) opinions, you should prioritize that of others.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm afraid that the answer to your question is quite simple, but probably irrelevant I guess. It is relevant for me though. In my case, the gamble must be done in the early meters of the race.

I can not, after starting loosing DPS, gain it back, or compensate with a higher SR. I have to make a choice of DPS/SR ratio that can hold the road for the entire duration of the race, if I want to achieve close to an even split (ie, 3x500 fairly evenly paced).

And in my case once again, I can swim 14 strokes, this is something I can do. I can also swim 15 strokes, this is something I can do and hold for much longer. But over 1500m, I can't see myself holding 15strokes and anyway, 15 strokes given a nice rate (for instance a bit faster than 1.0) puts me under a resulting time I think I can manage with my usual fitness level. 16 on the other hand, that I can hold and if it melts down at some point, it will drift toward 17, no more.

All that though applies to me, ie a swimmer with a stable distance per stroke and a clean stroke. When my stroke falls apart, it's for the reason I explained earlier, ie rotators cuff muscles (mainly these) become tired from trying to keep high elbow whilst pulling. That extra strains comes comes from the fact that the torque per stroke increases dramatically when I cut a stroke per length. There's a massive diff between racing (ie, holdiing slighly sub 1:20 pace per 100m over 1500) at 14, 15, and 16. The later compared to the former feels like pure walk in the park.

This theory probably doesn't apply to for instance loosing focus along the swim which allows your stroke flaws you're trying to solve to resurface. It's two completely different issue. If I try to pull too big of a gear in the water, no matter how hard I focus mentally, there's only so much these rotators cuff muscles can do.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-30-2012 at 01:34 AM.
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  #16  
Old 10-30-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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WFEGb
Default ... and more..

Please excuse, didn't see the second page...

@ Craig.Arnold and Flychick,
I agree with your analyse. But the flaws which I'm able to realise are all TI basics. Others are still off my view. And I think my repair tries are also quite basically. So I'm not so sure where and how to go to the needed basics basics, when swimming in whole stroke. And it has to be conserved (better not!) for my next drill time.

Best regards,
Werner
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  #17  
Old 10-30-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hi Charles,

wow, you're answers faster than I can write...

Thanks again and another question. How to get the SPL/DPS window as small as yours? My windows are others (btw my times also!) with same observations over for me longer times: In 25m (17SPL-21SPLs) and in 50m (38SPL-44SPL). How to shut this 5/6SPL window to 2/3SPL?

Regards,
Werner

PS: The found strokes stick firmly so terribly...
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  #18  
Old 11-01-2012
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig.arnold@gmail.com View Post
Eventually after about 600m of feeling terrible I stopped to think.
There have been so many great contributions in this thread. Thanks for getting this started with good questions Werner.

What I love about the thread is that it's thoughtful. Many different opinions are expressed but all received with equanimity and open-ness. What all have in common is they embody examined thinking.

As well, Craig's instinct to stop his set or practice because he could sense he wasn't on an path to achieve the central goal to improve his swimming -- and then work through a logical decision tree (start with elements of balance) to solve the problem he sensed -- is what makes this thread such a quintessential example of the TI Method.

It's more about mindset than movement.

Pass it on.
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Terry Laughlin
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May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story
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  #19  
Old 11-02-2012
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
. . . over 1500m . . . 15 strokes given a rate faster than 1.0 puts me under a resulting time I think I can manage with my usual fitness level. 16 on the other hand, that I can hold and if it melts down at some point, it will drift toward 17, no more.
Quote:
When my stroke falls apart, it's because rotators cuff muscles become tired
Quote:
If I try to pull too big of a gear in the water, no matter how hard I focus mentally, there's only so much these rotators cuff muscles can do.
Charles, you may not BE a TI Coach, but you clearly THINK like one--(which means not like mainstream coaches.) I hope you're giving thought to pursuing TI Certification. You so clearly belong. And we need someone in Canada with your professional qualifications.

Am I the only one who else thinks Charles should become a TI Coach?
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Terry Laughlin
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May your laps be as happy as mine.

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  #20  
Old 11-02-2012
tomoy tomoy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Am I the only one who else thinks Charles should become a TI Coach?
x2

Charles for Coach 2013
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