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  #21  
Old 07-31-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Well, some would rather be known than be right (A.Coggan), I may add, at all costs! LOL
As in Andy Coggan the cyclist? How does that fit in? and what do you feel is not right with what he writes?
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  #22  
Old 07-31-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Oooohh my... I had written a detailed answer to this, seconds prior a computer crash :( (bahh these things happen).

Yes Dr. Coggan once wrote "Some would rather be known than be right". I thought this could apply rather well to the author of this clip (although I may very well be wrong).

The thing I dislike the most about all that is that it certainly doesn't apply to everyone, we all know that, euh well, you know what I mean.

So getting out there claiming everyone *should*, it probably get some people to feel bad about the fact they *can't*, whilst instead of feeling bad they should simply work on what they can do, then move toward the superman drill, which I believe remains the best (and almost only) drill to teach balance with a body that remains static. I hate people that blame their misfortune on the fact that they see themselves as a sinker. If everyone should, and that you can't, your then a exception, a sinker, and it may impact the rest of the learning process. That's why I'm reacting very badly to this clip. But I proposed it here on goodwill as I still want to understand, try, ask other how they do at it, can it make the difference for some, etc..

Buy a front snorkel. Be as relaxed as possible, ideally in a quite pool, in warm water. It's worth to search for such a pool, drive your car or ride your bike further than usual, because the results are strongly affected by the environment. The whole experience must be as enjoyable and relaxing as possible. Float in almost vertical position, face in the water, arms relaxed, etc. If the legs naturally come up to the surface, stay relaxed and let them come to the surface. Explore what your natural balance is, rather than trying to force things. Now bring your arms in front of you. It probably has a positive impact on body position.

The process described by this author as the only or the best way to achieve perfect horizontal line (or money back guarantee) is, to my eyes, a subset of this basic buoyancy drill. It's fun, and yes it can have an impact on body's positon. Call it pilates in the water. I guess it wouldn't take much time and effort to find other similar exercises for learning to engage core. That's what this drill is about. Adding core engagement to equalize buoyancy, ie to achieve horizontal, ie to improve balance. It teaches you that *NO* you don't need to put big efforts to this. You don't need strong core, although it doesn't hurt to have strong core. If you put to much effort, you'll probably break the balance. As you described in the other thread, you need to learn to engage it the right way, all that is dynamic. If you'd run lab test with swimmers hooked up for real time analysis, you'd see constant slight variations in muscle recruitment. Water moves, body adapts.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 07-31-2012 at 03:34 AM.
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  #23  
Old 01-04-2016
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Crazy to post on such an old thread but .. the exercises at the end of this video are things that I discovered for myself from first principles (mechanics). Good to see it demonstrated here. My explanations of it on the forum were greeted generally with .. incredulity! However, the explanations are way too complicated.

1. Obviously muscles need to be used: a) if you don't use them you'll be an imitation of a wet rag and b) a see-saw has to be at least stiff enough to maintain its own form under the force of gravity.

2. All that is happening in the clips of the exercises results from changes to the position of the CoG. Look carefully and you'll see how this is achieved (Hint: arms)

That's it.

Hydro-dynamic lift is a function of forward speed, so not really relevant. Attach your wrists to a speedboat and you'll be lying horizontal in no time!

The static balance shown is not achievable in swimming. Your arms have to move! Howwever, by keeping both of them as far forward as possible for as much time as possible during the stroke cycle you keep your CoG as far forward as possible and greatly improve your balance.

But the idea that using your muscles, apart from as in 1 above, provides the key to altering gravitational forces is simply barking (maybe the video style is the clue?). In the from-verticasl-to-horizontal drill, it simply takes time, once the CoG has been changed by extending the arms, for the different CoG to rebalance. The effect can be greatly speeded up by NOT burying the head (as a head out of water "weighs" more than a head submerged)

Personally I have found that doing the static drills helps in two ways. The greatest of these is the realization that, as I can float, I'm not going to drown (especially good for OW swims!). The second is that it helps recalibrate my proprioception by giving the feel for what horizontal feels like. I can then try to get this feeling as I swim.
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  #24  
Old 01-04-2016
Mike Wray Mike Wray is offline
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The only way for most men to float horizontally without forward movement is to hold arms out front. No amount of muscle tension in the pelvic region will achieve this.
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  #25  
Old 01-04-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Not even all females who make videos about how to float can do it.
If the supporting arm from the coach is gone her legs drop like a stone at the end of the ciip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhtpckfbxp0

She has nice flexible ankles so she will be OK with a bit of skillfull kicking.
Sinking legs + stiff ankles + bad kicking technique + low general buoyancy + little swim fitness simply make a swimmerslive harder, even if you do everything else right.
You can still improve 3 out of these 5 though.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 01-04-2016 at 05:05 PM.
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  #26  
Old 01-04-2016
novaswimmer novaswimmer is offline
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I know this is an old thread, but I've been thinking of this a lot.

Every BODY is different. There's no way I could ever achieve a motionless horizontal position in the water without some flutter kicking, even with arms completely extended in front of me. My body type, fat distribution, center of gravity, bone density, and maybe even lung capacity, won't allow it. Shinji just has crazy-good body balance and it's evident to me that his body type is one real important reason. I would wonder why he never swam earlier in his life (if, in fact, he did not).

We all have different centers of gravity. Some swimmers can compensate by changing posture and making small muscle/core adjustments - and others can't -- ever. This is why you have some people slicing through the water with little effort and for others it's a real struggle. Doesn't mean they can't learn to swim, but it's more of an effort and they'll never build really good speed if they have all that drag from less than ideal horizontality.

I'm not saying that the less-than-ideal body type and 'off' center of gravity one might inherit is always to blame for one's struggles in the pool. But it can be a very real reason.

You know, I happen to be a really good ice skater. I just picked it up like, overnight. Effortless for me. Hmm. Maybe my shorter stature and lower center of gravity have something to do with that?

Last edited by novaswimmer : 01-04-2016 at 05:36 PM.
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  #27  
Old 01-04-2016
Mike Wray Mike Wray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novaswimmer View Post
Shinji just has crazy-good body balance and it's evident to me that his body type is one real important reason.

novaswimmer, I agree with you here. I've noticed the same thing.
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  #28  
Old 01-06-2016
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novaswimmer View Post
... Every BODY is different. There's no way I could ever achieve a motionless horizontal position in the water without some flutter kicking, even with arms completely extended in front of me. ...
I have to lift my arms so they are maybe 50% out of the water, half in half out maybe to balance with no kicking. I am lean.

EDIT

Once you get into alignment, alterations take time to take effect. There is a delay to the effect that your actions have. This means that you have time to get your arms forward in the stroke to help stop your legs sinking which together with a small kick keeps them at the surface.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 01-06-2016 at 01:18 PM.
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  #29  
Old 01-06-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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I'm not sure if Shinji's body type is so different, but he does have amazing flexibility. This is probably one reason that I will never be able to swim like Shinji does. Those of us with less flexibility have to compensate for it.
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  #30  
Old 01-07-2016
Grant Grant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
I'm not sure if Shinji's body type is so different, but he does have amazing flexibility. This is probably one reason that I will never be able to swim like Shinji does. Those of us with less flexibility have to compensate for it.
Shinj's body proportions are different than a lot of us. His legs are shorter in relation to his trunk than many of us. This is a plus when it comes to balance.
Does not take away from what he has achieved.
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