The Propulsion Paradox

[Zenturtle]

Watched the whole thing. Little info in a lot of time, but the info is all pretty logical and straightforward.

Now some facts about elites anchoring in the water. measured a guy with a 6BK and very good traction for slippage during his effective armpull.







And counted the position of head and hand by the seperate red floaters of the line.

............... Hand..........Head...........Handslip............. ...Head forward movement
Start .........13.............9.5

Mid.............10.............13............13-10=3.........13-9.5=3.5 start to mid

End............6.5............17.5..........10-6.5=3.5......17.5-13=4.5 mid-end

So he moves forward a bit more than the hand slips backward.
A rough guide for good swimmers is that slippage of hand is the same as the amount the body moves forward.
The avarage swimmer slips twice the amount the body is moving forward.
Real anchoring is a fairytail, but the elite anchors a lot better then the avarage swimmer for sure.

Now check Sun Yangs traction from the same base footage.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHAVHh2biIo#t=31.654987

[Danny]

nice calculation, ZT. Interesting. It would be nice if there were some way we all could measure ourselves, although I'm afraid of the answer. Also, I wonder how much my slippage varies from day to day and from stroke to stroke.

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

ZT:

I'm not sure why you changed the narrative, your pulling impulse filters are diluting the message and language. Also, anchoring is not a not to be taken literally. Coach Kredich describes holding water with the entire forearm - lateral movement causes water to spill (off the arm) resulting in *added* slippage. As he positions the swimmer in max grip and leverage in front - he demonstrated how poor head-spine alignment and an arched back affects the low side arm leverage and grip - and then corrects the swimmer's position (head-pine, tuck pelvis). Also the position of the low-side arm just past the below button where leverage slips away from a vertical position to the release off the hip. Isolating that zone on the trainer so the swimmer can feel where max/grip and leverage are. And how much a slight change in position can change that zone. The zone is very short, poor body position will make it even shorter.

What I admire about Coach Kredich is his curiosity and ability to look at any stroke with fresh eyes, removing traditional filters on how he was coached and learned swimming over the years. Also, coming up with the forearm bands on the Vasa Trainer is a great idea. putting the pressure point nearer the fulcrum (shoulder) on forearm and not on the palm to help train the whole arm hold and not just a pulling palm/paddle. I'm not sure if this was his idea, or Coach Boomer's or another coach - but gives a whole new use and context when using the Vasa Trainer. I suspect the folks at Vasa were very happy with added use case as well as getting an endorsement and plug from a couple of the best coaches in the country.

Stuart

[Zenturtle]

Well, it didnt give me much new information. If you take Richards Quick aquatic posture video serious then thats the starting point of your vessel, be it in the water or on some dryland trainer. That video is pretty old now, so I am not exactly blown away by new insights in this VASA video. He also makes a destinction between tilting the head and lifting the head, like talked about in the head position thread, which was surprising to hear.

Ii like the remark of the VASA guy, that its usefull to watch for body/legs movment in the horizontal plane. That is an indication you are pulling (or anchoring if that sounds better) in a direction that disturbs your forward straight line, or simply are not holding good posture.
They should attach the sliding part with elastic rubbers to the padded part where the person lies on.
That way you can mimic the unbalanced body in the water better and take measures to correct your stroke, so the body keeps tracking straight during the pulling action.
If you also add force sensors to this frame you are lying on you can compare the body reactions of good and bad swimmers.
Much more interesting than comparing watt outputs and and/or bluetooth connection. They can give me a call, I have some more improvement ideas ;-)

What do you think of my idea of using the stretch cords in a vertical way instead of a semi horizontal way like its done on all the youtube clips?
I use an old innertube to make a loop where the forearm can be put in, and than you can pull close to the elbow instead of near the hand.
Gives more body loading and less local shoulder loading.

@Danny
You have to have a side view with a background close by and taken from some distance so the perspective doesnt change much during a stroke.
This slippage is pretty fundamental in someones stroke. Cant see an avarage swimmer go from twice forward movement slippage to equal forward movement slippage between a good or a bad day.
It depends a lot on your speed and effort level too. The elite swimmer is having that traction at about a 1 minute/100m pace....

I admit being rather arm focussed, but a car with a good engine needs good tires too to transmit the power to the road.
And thats what the arms do, providing most of the endpropulsion.

Pictures speak louder than words. This olympic swimmer has some good and bad points in his anchoring movments.
Whats bad and what is good?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL_OSDV4ZlA

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

Well, it didnt give me much new information. If you take Richards Quick aquatic posture video serious then thats the starting point of your vessel, be it in the water or on some dryland trainer. That video is pretty old now, so I am not exactly blown away by new insights in this VASA video. He also makes a destinction between tilting the head and lifting the head, like talked about in the head position thread, which was surprising to hear.

I've never been a fan of the Vasa trainer since 1. swimmer's flat and not rotated in the position they would be in the water (freestyle), 2. encourages the impulse to pull and not hold. And almost admittedly from Coach Kredich, he stopped using Vasa Trainer I believe for reasons 1 & 2 above - but then took a look at the trainer to isolate positions with body both in and out of correct posture to help swimmers become aware of body position and posture outside of an aquatic environment.

The video is a couple years old, but certainly Coach Kredich's methods are unconventional, all influenced by Coach Boomer. Same with Richard Quick, a huge influence from Coach Boomer. "The shape of the vessel matters more than the size of the engine" is their mantra too. Here's a good piece on Boomer and Quick: http://www.teamunify.com/SubTabGener...&_stabid_=8068

Tilting head and not lifting head is to breathe in fly. I see this breathing pattern much more now, especially Phelps in the fly. I am curious how much Boomer has influenced Bob Bowman (Phelps' coach), but in any articles/video from Coach Bowman, he's never mentioned or credited Bill Boomer that I'm aware of.

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

Ii like the remark of the VASA guy, that its usefull to watch for body/legs movment in the horizontal plane. That is an indication you are pulling (or anchoring if that sounds better) in a direction that disturbs your forward straight line, or simply are not holding good posture.
They should attach the sliding part with elastic rubbers to the padded part where the person lies on.
That way you can mimic the unbalanced body in the water better and take measures to correct your stroke, so the body keeps tracking straight during the pulling action.
If you also add force sensors to this frame you are lying on you can compare the body reactions of good and bad swimmers.
Much more interesting than comparing watt outputs and and/or bluetooth connection. They can give me a call, I have some more improvement ideas ;-)

What do you think of my idea of using the stretch cords in a vertical way instead of a semi horizontal way like its done on all the youtube clips?
I use an old innertube to make a loop where the forearm can be put in, and than you can pull close to the elbow instead of near the hand.
Gives more body loading and less local shoulder loading.

Stretch cords are great for rehabbing injured shoulders, especially progressive aspect of the (rubber) band. Other than that, I don't see much use for swimming. The progressive aspect of the band is not consistent with water, but if there's a way to isolate movements and feel position, then possibly a there's use. Standing vertical with bands to simulate rotation is better than flat or bent at waist pulling on bands. Rather (only occasionally) I use gym pulley with light weight, standing in rotated tall posture, holding forearm parallel to floor when pressing down. Very similar to how Coach Kredich uses the Vasa with two arms - a one arm press (down) maintaining forearm parallel to floor; starting elbow high (top of head), pressing down until forearm begins to hinge at elbow near belly button. Coach Kredich's idea of the arm band on the forearm - I'll try the same using the pulley pressing down from forearm and not the hand. Uh oh - I see a possible demo video of this in the near future :-)

Stuart

[Zenturtle]

Are you a pencil or a fish?

Teaching someone to rotate straight through the pool can be a good thing, but it can also limit you to use all your muscles.
It can be restrictive despite the better streanline it produces.
Most people want to uindulate, bounce in rhythm on buoyancy, rotate shoulders more than hips, bend and unbend through the spine etc to get acces to more core power in their stroke.

One of the most pencil like swimmers is Camille Muffat.
Perfect theoretical technique, but not the optimal way for everyone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVWofbptdVg

[Richardsk]

Too bad that she is dead. She was a beautiful swimmer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Muffat

[Zenturtle]

The other famous female french swimmer was the total opposite in stroke style.
smooth versus swimger as swim smooth would call it.
I call it the skippybal style. Bouncing from one side catch right into the other side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZVESCiWctA

This bounce technique is very widespread. Even Sun Yang at 0.25 speed slowmo reminds me of footage of the first man walking on the moon.
Bouncing forward and up from their supprot points.
In Sun Yang case its the fall on one side of the body, let it reach it deepest point and bounce, catch and kick to the otherside.
Its almost imposibble to have only forces working straight backward, just like walking on the moon. This is the way to recycle most of the diverted energy.
Try it and watch on 1/4 normal speed. His bounce is mild and mainly on his nonbreathing side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHAVHh2biIo#t=31.654987

Thats why I like to swim above a minimal stroke rate. Skippybals have a cretain preferred bounce rate.
2BK is the ideal bounce kick, or 6bk with a strong 2Bin it.
Skippyball swimming is fun, but you can easily take it too far, just concentrating on the bounce and not on the forward progress.
Popov also did a lot of skippyball swimming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_56kXuqiMc (from 2min25)

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Coach Boomer characterizes that as "riding the space" from the arm being thrown forward - not a bounce. Manaudou sure could have improved her body posture and position with Boomer position pearls.

Stuart

[Zenturtle]

If there is one person who associates propulsion with pulling technique its Sheila Taormina.
She hates slippage during the underwater action and strongly advocates to avoid it as much as possible.
So, how is she doing herself in this regard?

start45


start60


mid


end


head forward movement compared to hand rearward movement= slip.
12 grey and 12 red floaters.
from this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1OOeKleGYs
..................head............hand............ ...head forward.......handslip...................slipfacto r
start45.......11 red.............3grey
start60.......2,5 grey...........2,5grey...........3,5.............0 ,5......... from start45 to start60.... 0,14
mid.............4,5 grey...........1grey..............2..............1 ,5......... from start60 to mid.............0,75
end............. 8 grey.............1o,5 red..........3,5............2,5......... from mid to end..................0,71


Avarage over complete pull
head forward 9 floaters, handslip 4,5 floaters. slipfactor = 4,5/9= 0,5. handslippage is half the forward head movement.
She slips very little at the front of the stroke, so the initiation to hard pulling is gentle and still has some forward spearing movement with little hand pressure, otherwise the slippage would me more at this stage.

This is very good. The guy racing against Sun Yang had a slipfactor somewhere around 0,8.
Conclusion: she is practicing what she preaches. A very good anchor with very little slippage of water.
The average swimmer is closer to a slipfactor of 2. The hand slips twice the amount the head moves forward during the pull.
So she slips 4 times less than the average swimmer. Exceptional.
The arm pulling obsessed swimmer actually moves the body from her anchor better than the vast majority of swimmers.
You could call that a propulsion paradox.