Breathing Question

[Tom Pamperin]

Originally Posted by descending

Funny thing happens every time you push that bar up from a really challenging day it's at a higher point the next time. Uh oh, I'm swimming faster!

Yes--that reminds me of what I was discussing with a young woman who placed in the top 20 or so at Div III Nationals this year in a couple of events:

You think "When I get fitter, this will get easier." But it never does! All that happens is that you become able to push even harder and suffer more...

Not a complaint--just an appreciation of the joys and challenges of pushing hard!

[descending]

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin

Yes--that reminds me of what I was discussing with a young woman who placed in the top 20 or so at Div III Nationals this year in a couple of events:

You think "When I get fitter, this will get easier." But it never does! All that happens is that you become able to push even harder and suffer more...

Not a complaint--just an appreciation of the joys and challenges of pushing hard!

I believe this was attributed to Greg LeMond: "It doesn't get any easier you just go faster. I hurt just as badly as the weekend warrior I just go faster than he does". That's what I love about training with a group. While you are seeing red in the middle of a brutal set you know everyone else is hurting too. But then there is pizza and beer waiting for you in an hour....which honestly is part of the reason I push myself physically so hard. I can eat whatever I want, as much as I want pretty much whenever I want. Even though the former college stud is banging out a 1:05 pace I know while I'm slower we both hurt just as much. Makes the hard days a lot easier.

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

I know some very quick swimmers that breathe mostly on three's and seem to get enough air. So it's really personal to each swimmer, but the main thing is don't starve yourself of air, get it when you need it, even if that means breathing on one's when necessary.

Stuart

along with my remark above about the 21 rpm at seated rest.....I think breathing pattern is determined by how big a gulp you can take in....i.e., deeper or shallower breaths

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal

...You can even breath on one's, every stroke, which is breathe off one shoulder then breathe off opposite shoulder on very next stroke (bilateral). Sun Yang breathes on one's going into the wall (two breaths on last two strokes) and coming off the wall (first two strokes)...

You are absolutely right! I just had to watch a video to see if he really did and you are correct. Good spot. Never imagined an elite breathing like that.

My TI coach mentioned to me today about always having the option of taking another breath on the other side if I miss a breath so that's twice referenced in the same day having never heard of it before!

I have experimented with breathing every 3 in the middle of the pool and every 2 in and out the wall. Might try that again as I've got a couple of issues to iron out that a bit more symmetry might help with. Or even breathe to the left one lap, on the right the next.

[sclim]

Originally Posted by descending

For his interests with endurance based open water swimming I would have to believe it's the same rationale as pool based. It's an aerobic sport if you are pushing yourself and oxygen exchange is a good thing. Measure your respiration rate walking down the sidewalk today at an easy effort and take note. Now divide your stroke rate by 3 and see what number you come up with. Does it scan? I am sitting at the airport waiting on a flight at 21 breaths per minute typing on a computer. With most of the stroke rates I read about in here I wouldn't even be getting typing air exchange at bilateral. I need at least 63 SPM to get 21 breaths per minute with bilateral. Now it just so happens that I race around low 70's so in theory that could fit in if I wanted to stay at sitting typing exertion levels, but I do not I work harder than that. Alas even for my 2.4 mile IM relay swim I was around low 60's probably, but I breathed same side every stroke so about 30-ish breaths per minute. Go figure that is what I need at a solid run pace ~ 32!

The only way you will know is if you allow yourself to sip some more air and if you feel better and your workload potential goes up it's pretty safe to say your body wanted more O2. I'm not saying I don't hurt still I do, but the net result is I can do a lot more work at 30+ breaths per minute as opposed to 20 or so. 20 is warm up pace and I often do a little bilat warming up, but by the time the warm up set is on I'm unilateral.

OK, so it's the result of the equation that you're working so hard you can't get enough O2 at one breath in 3 strokes, it's got to be one breath per 2 strokes.

Does he have a preference for swimmers to be able to get those breaths on either side? i.e. Must work on being able to do All on the Left, or All on the Right?

Edit: Oh, fully addressed in the later exchange -- I take it Gerry's prohibition was on breathing 1 in 3, not on being able to breathe on either side per se.

[descending]

Originally Posted by sclim

OK, so it's the result of the equation that you're working so hard you can't get enough O2 at one breath in 3 strokes, it's got to be one breath per 2 strokes.

Does he have a preference for swimmers to be able to get those breaths on either side? i.e. Must work on being able to do All on the Left, or All on the Right?

Edit: Oh, fully addressed in the later exchange -- I take it Gerry's prohibition was on breathing 1 in 3, not on being able to breathe on either side per se.

No preference he doesn't even press people to breathe to both sides unless they get overly lopsided that is when I hear him say something on occasion. Taht's really just to newer-ish people though he trusts the more experienced people to do what is bringing them the fastest most reliable splits. At least until he sees that it's a detriment.

Exactly I understood Gerry's position to be don't force yourself into 1 breath every 3. Breathing to both sides is a great skill to have for anyone, but especially open water focus.

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

Originally Posted by ScoopUK

You are absolutely right! I just had to watch a video to see if he really did and you are correct. Good spot. Never imagined an elite breathing like that.

My TI coach mentioned to me today about always having the option of taking another breath on the other side if I miss a breath so that's twice referenced in the same day having never heard of it before!

I have experimented with breathing every 3 in the middle of the pool and every 2 in and out the wall. Might try that again as I've got a couple of issues to iron out that a bit more symmetry might help with. Or even breathe to the left one lap, on the right the next.

Hi Scoop,

Yeah, Sun Yang doesn't want to go hypoxic off the wall and gets extra air before and after the turn, pretty smart. Occasionally you see him breathe on one's in the middle of the length too. He breathes mostly on twos off right shoulder, but easily breathes on one's whenever he needs it.

A good breathing practice, as well as establishing good head position is breathe on one's for a length. Breathing on one's your head never has time to be out of position :-)

Hey - who's your coach in UK, Jai, Keith, Tracey, or ...?

My coach is Gabor. Had a coached session in the endless pool today. Nice to have someone give feedback every couple of weeks then go away and practice.

[descending]

Stuart just to update on our new guy. Sat down with him after practice yesterday and a couple of my tri friends he is starting to train with locally. He's been in and out of tri since the late 90's with delays due to work, family etc., but he's been swimming 3x a week steadily no matter what just not racing as much as he wants. Now his kids are in college and he owns his own biz so he wants to focus on tri big time now. Guyis super fit I thought he was a lot younger he's got some miles on his chassis. Does sprint and Olympic distance races, but has done 1 IM. Came to know TI through his last tri coach who was a proponent and he has also read 'the book' I'm guessing their is a main book of TI knowledge. No direct TI coaches or clinics.

So far he's liking Masters and being exposed to some new things. He had become stale with progress and swim splits the past few years. As of right now he is swimming the fastest he's ever done short course workouts, but he's also quite tired as he's never worked this hard. I think he realizes picking up the speed the last month is almost purely stroke rate/kick based so for that he realizes it's not fitness or very little. I told him to give it a month b/c he makes any decision on stick with us or go another route b/c he's busting through a fitness wall right now. He's added a 6 beat and is at ~ 75 spm vs low 60's and 2 beat. Was barely making 2 minute send offs for 100 base work a month ago and made almost all of them yesterday. He realizes that doesn't equate to an open water swim split PR or an overall faster triathlon split, but he's fully ready to try a new approach. The proof will be in the puddin' when he races in about a month.

Not sure if I covered all you wanted to know, but that's his gig. He's a really funny guy he will fit in perfectly with our group about as laid back as it gets.

[CoachStuartMcDougal]

That's great to hear, thanks for checking and sharing. One can only go so far self coaching, and being in an environment that mixes things up, you break through those plateau's. Masters really means "adult swimming", important for swimmers to join and not be intimidated by the word "master" or the environment. I would hope your coach recognizes the foundation he built mostly on his own where an experienced coach can easily shape.

Whether six beat or two beat kick, he's got a kick timed with rotation that connects the core and whole body movement. I have come across many seasoned masters swimmers who think they have a '6 beat kick', but it's really just an poorly timed flutter, often kicking that inhibits rotation and its momentum; they had no idea the kick is actually timed with rotation. Whether 60 or 75 spm, he's smart enough to know which is working for him given his skill set and distance he's swimming in triathlon.

Is your masters USMS sanctioned? I assume so if you are racing pool events. What's your team name? I'm So Cal Tri Masters, LA/Sherman Oaks, CA. Let me know your team and I'll look you guys up. If you're ever traveling rhrough LA, always feel free to drop by to swim as a guest. I've had quite a few USMS from around the country stop in for a swim while traveling.

Stuart