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  #11  
Old 06-19-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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By 'delay out front' I think he means that you wait a while with your lead hand in front of you and don't try to pull too soon.

The hinging motion means that you imagine your elbow joint is like a door hinge and the hand and forearm swing down as if on a hinge.

I think the warning about slow pull back and finding [the catch] on the way down are to guard against the dropped elbow, which is illustrated very clearly.

You are right about the automatic captions. They are nonsensical.
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  #12  
Old 06-20-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scr View Post
I use Dave Cameron's video for reference

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmYS7SFKDQU
Coach Dave Cameron's video is my go-to video for a dryland exercise to imprint the early vertical forearm/catch.

The biggest issues I find with this are:

1. Dropping the forearm below the elbow sounds easy in theory, but there are biomechanical issues that need to be resolved before you can do this.

a. Your elbow must end up on top of the arm so that your forearm can bend under it. If your elbow is to the side or down, this ain't happenin'!

b. There could be mobility issues in the shoulder, arm, elbow. These all need to be addressed.

c. This is definitely a neuromuscular problem. So you need to develop control of an action that is not something that you would normally do anywhere else.

2. Timing of both arms must change. You must have patient lead arm to have the correct timing of the stroke back versus the spear.

3. You also must have specific control of the upper arm of the speared arm, meaning you must be able to resist the temptation to pull the entire arm back when it is time to stroke - instead, you must drop the forearm first, THEN stroke the entire arm back.
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  #13  
Old 06-20-2013
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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I'm wondering how close to real swimming is that dryland drill.
My concern is the body rotation vs lead arm timing.
It looks to me in that drill that catch only starts when rotation change side.
(let's say right hand starts to drop to catch position when rotation toward the right side starts).
And 2nd thing : it looks like the rotation is over *before* the the arm starts its backward pull/push movement !
So the complete rotation is used to put the arm in catch position.

Is that really a correct move, or is it just a drill that should not be emulated in the water ?
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  #14  
Old 06-20-2013
Rajan Rajan is offline
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When you say that you must drop the forearm arm, does it mean that forearm of the recovery hand should submerged till the elbow (like in swing drill, where forearm dangles near the goggles.) and then stroke the entire arm back. Earlier I used to stroke back from the leading arm when my recovery hand fingers used to touch the water during the entry. It was the trigger point for me.

Regards

Rajan

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
instead, you must drop the forearm first, THEN stroke the entire arm back.
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  #15  
Old 06-20-2013
StuartK StuartK is offline
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Rajan is getting confused, I'm confused and I speak the language, not that it's something I wish to risk to attempt myself :) To simplify matters would it be possible for someone to list, in order, the actions required to perform this type of catch :- 1. Spearing arm enters the water 2. ........
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  #16  
Old 06-20-2013
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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While doing a bit of youtube surfing I came across this video of Cesar Cielo Filho winning the 50 free in Beijing. Unusually for a 50m race there is some nice underwater footage and you can see Cielo's high elbow catch quite clearly. It is my impression that his right arm has a somewhat different action, which is by no means uncommon in swimmers of all levels but the camera angle may be deceiving.

I don't suppose many of us can pick up useful hints from watching this, but you never know ;-).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqfFT58tubQ
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  #17  
Old 06-20-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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I think a text description may be very difficult to capture the nuances of simultaneous movement.

Coach Dave Cameron's video should be studied in motion. But since you asked, I will attempt to describe in words what is happening.

First, the high elbow catch requires some mobility. You must have sufficient mobility in the shoulder, arm, and elbow for you to perform this movement at all. So if you have restrictions or are stiff, you need work in this area before any progress can be made. I would search out a good physical therapist/sports medicine person to help with this. If you want to try it yourself, probably the best text I've found is Becoming a Supple Leopard by Kelly Starrett. You can also find some free resources at his website MobilityWod.com.

Next comes neuromuscular patterning of the movement. I would break that down into 2 parts, what happens in the extended arm and what happens in the overall stroke/switch in the entire body and arms.

Extended arm:

After you address mobility, then you need to be able to get your elbow on top of your arm, or at least somewhat on top if not a bit to the side. If you cannot, you will not be able to drop your forearm/hand under your elbow - it will fold inward towards your head.

On dryland, try this drill. Extend one of your arms with your palm facing down, as if you just speared. Now, without a ton of movement in the shoulder AND keeping your hand still, rotate just your elbow from its down/side position to the top of the arm. Nice parlor trick right?

OK that was the advanced and most desirable movement. An easier path is to just rotate your hand inward, with the thumb starting to point down, about 5-10 degrees. This also gets your elbow nearly on top. You do not want to rotate your hand all the way inward to get your elbow all the way on top; this is bad because now your palm is not facing backward and is not in the optimal position to catch water.

In the water, you must imprint this movement as you spear. So as the spear extends outward, you must either turn your thumb inward/down slightly, or better rotate your elbow on top (without excessive rotation of the shoulder and no movement of hand). Either way puts your elbow in a more optimal position to just let your forearm drop underneath it, or nearly under it - it may bend slightly inward.

But also remember, your entire body is in motion at this point. So even if your elbow is not all the way on top, the moment you bend is when you spear the other hand so that it will end up with the hand pointing down once your body rotates with the other side spearing.

Good segway into the patterning of the entire movement:

The high elbow catch, or early vertical forearm (EVF), has many elements.

First you must be able to do this movement WITHOUT moving your upper arm during the time to stroke back. Most swimmers have imprinted just moving the entire arm back during the stroke back; this habit must be changed. So at the time when you would normally move the entire arm back, you just drop the forearm under the elbow. This is the essence of Coach Dave’s video.

Second, you must adjust the timing of your stroke back. Here we get to a textual description of this movement while swimming:

1. You are at the end of recovery. For the sake of clarity, let’s say the right arm is in proper spear-ready position, the left arm is extended in front of you. As we discussed before, you already have your elbow on top or near-top of the arm. Your fingers are relaxed and drooped slightly, such that your palm is facing somewhat back.

2. As the right arm begins its spear, it drops into the water. Your left arm is still extended - remember the patient lead arm!

3. As the right arm spear starts extending forward (and your body is beginning to rotate, probably getting flat at this point), your left arm bends at the elbow WHILE keeping the upper arm still extended forward. Thus the left forearm is dropping below the elbow to catch water with the entire forearm, not just hand.

4. The right arm spear is now extending forward and the left arm has a full vertical forearm now. Your body has rotated almost its finished position on the other side.

5. As the right arm spear is shooting forward, only now do you stroke back with the left hand, keeping its path straight backward which results in the elbow moving “high” in the water back with the hand. The stroke back along with the 2BK and hip drive through the torso and shoulders is what launches the spear forward, and you along with it.

Most of the time, the main issue is that you want to get your whole stroking back as soon as possible. You need to change that and delay it until you drop the forearm under the elbow first before stroking back.

The second issue is having a patient lead arm left extended forward until the recovering arm has entered the water and begun its path forward.

All this takes a ton of practice and work, some out of the pool, but is definitely achievable by everyone.
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  #18  
Old 06-21-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
...The stroke back along with the 2BK and hip drive through the torso and shoulders is what launches the spear forward, and you along with it.
Can you please tell us which one has top priority?
Who is leading who? The leg snap (body rotation) leads the stroking arm, or the stroking arm leads the body rotation?
Is it the STROKE giving the main propulsion or the BODY ROTATION giving the main propulsion? Or is it "half half"? (50% stroke and 50% body rotation). There are only 3 options.
At present, I first focus during a stroke cycle on my leg snap (body rotation) and only after that on my stroke.
The leg snap is my main focal point, not my stroking arm. Is that correct or wrong please?

Many thanks for your kind help
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Last edited by swimust : 06-21-2013 at 02:20 AM.
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  #19  
Old 06-21-2013
rcrawf rcrawf is offline
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Good question. If you were to just feel the water, what do you think gives you the most propulsion?
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  #20  
Old 06-21-2013
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcrawf View Post
Good question. If you were to just feel the water, what do you think gives you the most propulsion?
Its the one billion dollar question ;) hardly ever talked about...
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