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  #11  
Old 11-20-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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I think I am settling for a mid position, almost like spiderman firing his laser line from the middle of the Y position caused by the thumb and forefinger.

I had some good single length SPL's of 10 in my gym pool today and am getting comfortable with SR of 0.84 as per hascu's advice.

Since my general technique is now such that my SPL doesn't sky rocket with SR increase then if I can become comfortable with 85 strokes a minute then new speed will just happen (as Terry says) on my 100m? as that will give me 27SPL to go under 1:20
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  #12  
Old 11-20-2012
tomoy tomoy is offline
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Thanks Coach Suzanne. The caution is well-appreciated. Your doctorness is invaluable here.

Before getting into TI, I had no clue there were so many ways to move your hand from the extended spear through ~4' of water.

I'm reminded of Terry's voice saying, "elite swimmers have the range of motion to get their whole arms facing backward, we can at least start with the palm...." So I think forearm, yeah, I can do that too. Then I think upper arm, I'll try that. It really makes the water feel thicker, and I can do a fist drill much more effectively now. But take it for granted and the shoulder starts to hurt.

I'll work on timing to patiently wait for my platform to rotate at least back to flat. I think the Rose Bowl Aquatic Center (best 50M pool in my area) is open after Thanksgiving... gotta burn off some excess....
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  #13  
Old 11-20-2012
CoachToddE CoachToddE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Sorry no knowledge of anatomy so not sure how to technically describe this but when my hand enters the water I seem to have two options on how to align it to my forearm

1. with my forefinger in alignment with my hand in a natural position

2. with my thumb aligned with my forearm and the hand turned slightly out.

I'm not aware of any discussion on this subject.

Attached photos Terry in position 1, Shinji in position 2, although most swimmers seem to have a variation which suggests it is a result of natural relaxed hand position rather than deliberate technique?

Both Phelps and Sun seem to spear in postion 1 and then turn the wrist to position 2 to setup the catch (almost like starting a car ignition)

Anyone tested the difference or know of any knowledge on this?

I feel like position 2 would discourage crossover since the hand is 'searching' outwards
Andy,

Actually if your hand and forearm are truly relaxed the hand will enter the water with the palm facing backwards and I believe this is addressed in TI material. Entering with the palm rotated facing outwards requires execution of the forearm muscles which we are trying to keep relaxed. What you have as picture links are after the spearing and what Coach Dave and Suzanne were referring to with the 5 degree turn of the hand, but is actually the humerus turning not the hand as the palm has to continue to face backwards for the catch. If you do not wait for the initiation of the shoulder rotation to do this turn for you naturally then you have to learn how to rotate the humerus first. This is something we spent a great deal of time teaching our high school swimmers to do as it is not a natural thing to rotate the humerus only and nothing else.
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  #14  
Old 11-21-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachToddE View Post
Andy,

Actually if your hand and forearm are truly relaxed the hand will enter the water with the palm facing backwards and I believe this is addressed in TI material. Entering with the palm rotated facing outwards requires execution of the forearm muscles which we are trying to keep relaxed. What you have as picture links are after the spearing and what Coach Dave and Suzanne were referring to with the 5 degree turn of the hand, but is actually the humerus turning not the hand as the palm has to continue to face backwards for the catch. If you do not wait for the initiation of the shoulder rotation to do this turn for you naturally then you have to learn how to rotate the humerus first. This is something we spent a great deal of time teaching our high school swimmers to do as it is not a natural thing to rotate the humerus only and nothing else.
thanks Todd, I seem to have not got my message over here as I wasn't referring to rotating the palm but only the alignment of the hand relative to the forearm,

Another way to describe it would be left arm out in front of me I can point my middle finger anywhere from 10 oclock to 1 oclock. 12 would be natural but is it optimal? I think 11 maybe superior?

(on my right hand its would be between 11 oclock and 2 oclock and 1 oclock would be my preference)
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  #15  
Old 11-22-2012
CoachEricDeSanto CoachEricDeSanto is offline
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I have thought about this a bit because a kid on the high school team that I coached did it and cruised to 47s 100s. I have seen a few elite swimmers do it do some degree. (By the way, I believe, if I am remembering the anatomical terminology from a long time ago, the proper term is adducting the wrist because if you put your arm by your side with the palm forward, the motion we are discussing is pointing the fingers towards the body with the palm staying forward.) Here is my take.

1. I use this technique to help those swimmers, especially older swimmers, who have a hard time fully extending their elbows in the spear. It also helps swimmers who cannot feel that they are crossing over. As with most modifications like this, I ask them to return to straight as soon as they become consistent with a correct arm motion.

2. It tends to increase internal shoulder rotation (with all the benefits and warnings of internal rotation described by others above.)

3. It helps some people sense the degree of shoulder rotation.

4. It creates a small amount of increased drag on the spear.

5. Some people's hands feel more relaxed slightly bent in that way.

So, I would never recommend pushing the thumb forward to a tense degree. But feel free to play with a small amount of wrist adduction. As always, if it helps you decrease stroke count at a given tempo or speed up tempo at a given stroke count and does not add effort or strain, go for it.
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  #16  
Old 11-22-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachEricD View Post
I have thought about this a bit because a kid on the high school team that I coached did it and cruised to 47s 100s. I have seen a few elite swimmers do it do some degree. (By the way, I believe, if I am remembering the anatomical terminology from a long time ago, the proper term is adducting the wrist because if you put your arm by your side with the palm forward, the motion we are discussing is pointing the fingers towards the body with the palm staying forward.) Here is my take.

1. I use this technique to help those swimmers, especially older swimmers, who have a hard time fully extending their elbows in the spear. It also helps swimmers who cannot feel that they are crossing over. As with most modifications like this, I ask them to return to straight as soon as they become consistent with a correct arm motion.

2. It tends to increase internal shoulder rotation (with all the benefits and warnings of internal rotation described by others above.)

3. It helps some people sense the degree of shoulder rotation.

4. It creates a small amount of increased drag on the spear.

5. Some people's hands feel more relaxed slightly bent in that way.

So, I would never recommend pushing the thumb forward to a tense degree. But feel free to play with a small amount of wrist adduction. As always, if it helps you decrease stroke count at a given tempo or speed up tempo at a given stroke count and does not add effort or strain, go for it.
ulnar deviation is the proper term. i have more thoughts but postig from the phone is tough
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  #17  
Old 11-22-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hi Andy,

Quote:
...Another way to describe it would be left arm out in front of me I can point my middle finger anywhere from 10 oclock to 1 oclock. 12 would be natural but is it optimal? I think 11 maybe superior?
Think anywhere in his talks Terry's advice is to spear with forefinger in a line with forearm, relaxed pointing down. (This is your middle finger in three minutes past 12...)

Looking at Shinji's picture set (posted in the forum sometimes) he seems to do just that with his forefinger pointing to ground its whole way under water.

(For me it's a point to be aware of, because this gives me a better grip and (for me) it seems a little easier to catch and push my hand on a straight line related to body side than pointing my middle finger aligned with the forearm)

Best regards,
Werner
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  #18  
Old 11-22-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Default Serious Ulnar Deviation from Mr T?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
ulnar deviation is the proper term. i have more thoughts but postig from the phone is tough
I knew I'd find one of them with some serious ulnar -ing going on?
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File Type: jpg thorpe.jpg (60.9 KB, 33 views)
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  #19  
Old 11-22-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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It seems to me that it isn't the ulna that's deviating but the actual hand. I'm afraid I don't know what muscles or tendons are involved but no doubt Suzanne does. Practising the move in front of my computer, I can't feel any movement of the elbow or shoulder. Similar movements occur in sculling, of course , so perhaps the elites that do this are in fact sculling slightly to feel a grip on the water preparatory to catching or pulling
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  #20  
Old 11-22-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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I see from a quick search that the movement Andy is talking about is radial or ulnar deviation, in which it's the hand that does the deviating and not the radius or ulna. No doubt with more searching I can find out what muscles and tendons are involved - mainly those of the forearm, I think, but of course I could easily be wrong. I can feel some movement in the muscles of the upper arm as well but very little.
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